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The Last Trump


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Praise the Lord!

Though 1 Cor. 15:52, where the 'last trump' is spoken of, is considered by many to relate to a pre-trib rapture that view was not the original pre-trib dispensationalist position for that verse was considered to be pointing to the 'first resurrection' at the 'last day' when the Lord returns in glory. The context of that verse is plainly Millennial which also means that 1 Thes. 4:13-18 is as well which reveals that the trump of the seventh angel in Revelation is the same 'last trump' as mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:52 which proves that the catching up of the NT saints occurs at Jesus' return in glory, and not before.

"I wish to refer you to the connection of the passage in the 15th of 1st Corinthians with the 25th of Isaiah, because the connection of these two things?the resurrection of the saints and the restoration of Israel?will thereby be strongly brought out. The Apostle says that "when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, ?Death is swallowed up in victory.? If you turn to the 25th Isaiah, you will see that this takes place at this time which we call the millennium when, the Jews being restored to their place on the earth there is that era of blessedness among the nations which is commonly called the millennium. It is there said, Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low. And in this mountain shall the Lord of Hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory.?" That is at the time the resurrection takes place; for it is said in Corinthians, "Then shall come to pass the saying which is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." And thus it appears that the time when this resurrection takes place is the time when the Lord restores Israel, when He establishes Israel?s place in Zion, and takes away the veil from off the face of all nations." --J.N. Darby, "Second Coming", p. 84

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

[/list:u] The resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 is in a Millennial context for not only does Paul make a resurrection necessary to participate in the kingdom referred to there; (Which means that it is Christ's Millennial kingdom spoken of.) the Isaiah 25:8 verse quoted therein, and the earlier reference to the same, 'Death is swallowed up in victory' subject, as contained in 1 Cor. 15:24-26, certify that the 'last trump' refers to the 'first resurrection' at the very beginning of the Millennium. Maranatha
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The Last Trump



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No, what he is saying is he doesn't believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church, but that the rapture will come with the last of the seven trumpets in the book of Revelation (near the end of the tribulation period).

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I studied the rapture so much, because nothing people said made sense. First off, if Jesus comes before the trib, then wouldn't it be his third coming that would be in Glory? On the other hand, he's not coming at the end of the trib like a thief.... all the verses, all the commentary, led me to this great conclusion:

I don't care. I don't care what others care. I am simply convinced that you cannot know for sure through scripture when the rapture takes place, there is arguments for all three views, none of them better then any other.

I've also watched the fruit of the arguments some times, with people tearing each other up mercilessly when they need not too. I think you can be dogmatic about the rapture happening, but when?

By all means, I want this to continue, I'm still interested, I just thought I'd put in that viewpoint.

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The problem is that too many are letting their associations, denominations, and other things get in the way of the plain teachings of the Scriptures alone when studying out doctrine. For example, some (such as the Catholics, many Protestants, etc.) believe in Amillenialism - so they will NEVER arrive at the right conclusion if they keep interpreting the Bible in light of their backgrounds and traditions. Others use liberal Bible versions when studying out topics such as this - and there are passages that are changed enough in some versions that you will NOT arrive at a pre-trib rapture if you take those versions literally. And yet others will not take the passages on this issue at face value - or they will try to force their interpretations into passages that are not related - eg. trying to make the gathering in Matthew 24:31 to be a reference to the rapture, when it is not.

This is an issue that takes study - as there are many issues that must be taken together when reaching a proper conclusion on this subject.

One thing worth noting: Look in the book of Revelation - it does not just teach that Jesus only appears at the end of the Tribulation (ie. chapter 19). He is involved throughout it.

Both the rapture and the "second coming" are referred to as the coming of the Lord. Just like in His first coming, there were various aspects to it, so too there are various aspects in His second coming. First stage is the rapture (gathering together of the church age believers in the air), second stage is the landing on the Mount of Olives, etc.

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For those that may not have read it yet there was a good "sponsored" debate on this topic here on OB:

Pre-Tribulation vs. Post-Tribulation Rapture (in the prophecy forum)

Wayne

I thought it informative and moderated well regardless of which side you hold to.

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Just like in His first coming' date=' there were various aspects to it, so too there are various aspects in His second coming. First stage is the rapture (gathering together of the church age believers in the air), second stage is the landing on the Mount of Olives, etc[/quote']

That's something I've never seen articulated. I can study it myself, but if you can expound on this I would be most thankful.
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In the "Rapture". (Day of Christ)

1. the dead come out of the ground, the living are "Changed" to meet Jesus "in the air" (doesn't touch the ground),
the "RIGHTEOUS LEAVE THE EARTH"'.

At Jesus's return. (Day of the Lord)
NO DEAD come out of the ground. OT saints Jesus took to heaven when he ascended, the Rapture Church, the Trib saints killed, are all "IN HEAVEN", these "RETURN" with Jesus, only the "living saints" who survive the trib are "ON EARTH".

All unsaved are cast into hell with all previous unsaved dead, these are the dead who lived not until the thousand years are finished.

But the point is, "NO DEAD" come out of the ground when Jesus returns, all saints/righteous either return with Jesus or are still alive by surviving the trib.
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I was posed with the following thought and have been studying quite a bit on this ever since. Just where in scripture is it made clear that there are two raptures, one pre-trib and one at the end? The reason I am asking is the dead in Christ shall rise first and there will be believers killed during tribulation, therefore, all the dead in Christ are not in the grave yet and I don't have clear scripture that the rapture is, as my prof in college called it, split up into R1 and R2.

I am beginning to be pursuaded away from a pre-trib rapture (though I must say I sure wish or hope it is that way.) Matthew 24 makes sense in the case of a single post-trib, pre-wrath rapture.

Mat 24:29

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How can you be both post-trib and pre-wrath? God's wrath is poured out DURING the Tribulation, not after (which is what post-trib means - ie. after the trib).

Comparing Luke 21 with Isaiah 13 shows that ALL of the Tribulation is God's wrath - not just some certain portion or the end of it. The opening of the seals, the sounding of the trumpets, and the pouring out of the vials are all part of God's wrath during that time period.

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There is extremely troublesome times during the tribulation. It is a time to bring Israel to repentence and like it has throughout history, purge the church, but when the armies gather at the end, the Lord is pouring it out in full, without mercy. God is dealing wrath to the wicked world, and a purging tribulation to Israel and the church. The believers will have a measure of supernatural aid during these times.

Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Like Israel of old in Egypt, we will not be kept FROM the end times, but will be kept IN the end times. There will be believers slain for the testimony of Jesus Christ, but that is happening today around the globe.

Luk 21:25

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I already stated my views on pre-post trib, but I'll elaborate on something

I dodge talk about the rapture and end times more then anything else. I have found that nothing gets people more upset then any questioning of what they believe, and usually what they believe is what they have been taught.

People who have researched it fully, almost never get upset. If you study any topic enough, your foundation is solid enough you don't worry. People who take a couple verses they are shown, added to what bible college instructors told them to believe, get extremely dogmatic about many things, but triple so on this topic.

It says a lot when someone asks a question or challenges a view and the first response is an attack, it shows the lack of depth of understanding.

Maybe it's pre-trib and you need to work really really hard for God because it could come at any time. Maybe it's post trib and you need to invest in firearms and ready to eat meals. I say hope for the first and prepare for the second. Don't get dogmatic about it. It's such a stupid thing to get dogmatic about....

He's gonna come back, get dogmatic about that. Don't go arguing about when, especially sense not even Jesus knows.

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Nothing wrong with being dogmatic about what you are convinced the Bible says!

I am 100% convinced the Bible teaches Pre-Trib rapture - therefore I am being fully consistent in my stand. WHy should I waver in my declaration of doctrine? The Bible doesn't teach us to do that.

Of course, if someone has no definite position or is NOT settled doctrinally on that matter - then it would be ludicrous to be dogmatic.

So the question is: is someone convinced their stand is Biblical?

If so, stand firmly there.

If not, then declare it as your opinion and nothing more.

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