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Bryon

The Last Trump

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Praise the Lord!

Though 1 Cor. 15:52, where the 'last trump' is spoken of, is considered by many to relate to a pre-trib rapture that view was not the original pre-trib dispensationalist position for that verse was considered to be pointing to the 'first resurrection' at the 'last day' when the Lord returns in glory. The context of that verse is plainly Millennial which also means that 1 Thes. 4:13-18 is as well which reveals that the trump of the seventh angel in Revelation is the same 'last trump' as mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:52 which proves that the catching up of the NT saints occurs at Jesus' return in glory, and not before.

"I wish to refer you to the connection of the passage in the 15th of 1st Corinthians with the 25th of Isaiah, because the connection of these two things?the resurrection of the saints and the restoration of Israel?will thereby be strongly brought out. The Apostle says that "when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, ?Death is swallowed up in victory.? If you turn to the 25th Isaiah, you will see that this takes place at this time which we call the millennium when, the Jews being restored to their place on the earth there is that era of blessedness among the nations which is commonly called the millennium. It is there said, Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low. And in this mountain shall the Lord of Hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory.?" That is at the time the resurrection takes place; for it is said in Corinthians, "Then shall come to pass the saying which is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." And thus it appears that the time when this resurrection takes place is the time when the Lord restores Israel, when He establishes Israel?s place in Zion, and takes away the veil from off the face of all nations." --J.N. Darby, "Second Coming", p. 84

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

[/list:u] The resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15 is in a Millennial context for not only does Paul make a resurrection necessary to participate in the kingdom referred to there; (Which means that it is Christ's Millennial kingdom spoken of.) the Isaiah 25:8 verse quoted therein, and the earlier reference to the same, 'Death is swallowed up in victory' subject, as contained in 1 Cor. 15:24-26, certify that the 'last trump' refers to the 'first resurrection' at the very beginning of the Millennium. Maranatha
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The Last Trump



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No, what he is saying is he doesn't believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church, but that the rapture will come with the last of the seven trumpets in the book of Revelation (near the end of the tribulation period).

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I studied the rapture so much, because nothing people said made sense. First off, if Jesus comes before the trib, then wouldn't it be his third coming that would be in Glory? On the other hand, he's not coming at the end of the trib like a thief.... all the verses, all the commentary, led me to this great conclusion:

I don't care. I don't care what others care. I am simply convinced that you cannot know for sure through scripture when the rapture takes place, there is arguments for all three views, none of them better then any other.

I've also watched the fruit of the arguments some times, with people tearing each other up mercilessly when they need not too. I think you can be dogmatic about the rapture happening, but when?

By all means, I want this to continue, I'm still interested, I just thought I'd put in that viewpoint.

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The problem is that too many are letting their associations, denominations, and other things get in the way of the plain teachings of the Scriptures alone when studying out doctrine. For example, some (such as the Catholics, many Protestants, etc.) believe in Amillenialism - so they will NEVER arrive at the right conclusion if they keep interpreting the Bible in light of their backgrounds and traditions. Others use liberal Bible versions when studying out topics such as this - and there are passages that are changed enough in some versions that you will NOT arrive at a pre-trib rapture if you take those versions literally. And yet others will not take the passages on this issue at face value - or they will try to force their interpretations into passages that are not related - eg. trying to make the gathering in Matthew 24:31 to be a reference to the rapture, when it is not.

This is an issue that takes study - as there are many issues that must be taken together when reaching a proper conclusion on this subject.

One thing worth noting: Look in the book of Revelation - it does not just teach that Jesus only appears at the end of the Tribulation (ie. chapter 19). He is involved throughout it.

Both the rapture and the "second coming" are referred to as the coming of the Lord. Just like in His first coming, there were various aspects to it, so too there are various aspects in His second coming. First stage is the rapture (gathering together of the church age believers in the air), second stage is the landing on the Mount of Olives, etc.

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For those that may not have read it yet there was a good "sponsored" debate on this topic here on OB:

Pre-Tribulation vs. Post-Tribulation Rapture (in the prophecy forum)

Wayne

I thought it informative and moderated well regardless of which side you hold to.

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Just like in His first coming' date=' there were various aspects to it, so too there are various aspects in His second coming. First stage is the rapture (gathering together of the church age believers in the air), second stage is the landing on the Mount of Olives, etc[/quote']

That's something I've never seen articulated. I can study it myself, but if you can expound on this I would be most thankful.

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In the "Rapture". (Day of Christ)

1. the dead come out of the ground, the living are "Changed" to meet Jesus "in the air" (doesn't touch the ground),
the "RIGHTEOUS LEAVE THE EARTH"'.

At Jesus's return. (Day of the Lord)
NO DEAD come out of the ground. OT saints Jesus took to heaven when he ascended, the Rapture Church, the Trib saints killed, are all "IN HEAVEN", these "RETURN" with Jesus, only the "living saints" who survive the trib are "ON EARTH".

All unsaved are cast into hell with all previous unsaved dead, these are the dead who lived not until the thousand years are finished.

But the point is, "NO DEAD" come out of the ground when Jesus returns, all saints/righteous either return with Jesus or are still alive by surviving the trib.

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I was posed with the following thought and have been studying quite a bit on this ever since. Just where in scripture is it made clear that there are two raptures, one pre-trib and one at the end? The reason I am asking is the dead in Christ shall rise first and there will be believers killed during tribulation, therefore, all the dead in Christ are not in the grave yet and I don't have clear scripture that the rapture is, as my prof in college called it, split up into R1 and R2.

I am beginning to be pursuaded away from a pre-trib rapture (though I must say I sure wish or hope it is that way.) Matthew 24 makes sense in the case of a single post-trib, pre-wrath rapture.

Mat 24:29

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How can you be both post-trib and pre-wrath? God's wrath is poured out DURING the Tribulation, not after (which is what post-trib means - ie. after the trib).

Comparing Luke 21 with Isaiah 13 shows that ALL of the Tribulation is God's wrath - not just some certain portion or the end of it. The opening of the seals, the sounding of the trumpets, and the pouring out of the vials are all part of God's wrath during that time period.

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There is extremely troublesome times during the tribulation. It is a time to bring Israel to repentence and like it has throughout history, purge the church, but when the armies gather at the end, the Lord is pouring it out in full, without mercy. God is dealing wrath to the wicked world, and a purging tribulation to Israel and the church. The believers will have a measure of supernatural aid during these times.

Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Like Israel of old in Egypt, we will not be kept FROM the end times, but will be kept IN the end times. There will be believers slain for the testimony of Jesus Christ, but that is happening today around the globe.

Luk 21:25

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The problem is that too many are letting their associations' date=' denominations, and other things get in the way of the plain teachings of the Scriptures alone when studying out doctrine. .[/quote']

Yes I see that too
Randy :Green

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I already stated my views on pre-post trib, but I'll elaborate on something

I dodge talk about the rapture and end times more then anything else. I have found that nothing gets people more upset then any questioning of what they believe, and usually what they believe is what they have been taught.

People who have researched it fully, almost never get upset. If you study any topic enough, your foundation is solid enough you don't worry. People who take a couple verses they are shown, added to what bible college instructors told them to believe, get extremely dogmatic about many things, but triple so on this topic.

It says a lot when someone asks a question or challenges a view and the first response is an attack, it shows the lack of depth of understanding.

Maybe it's pre-trib and you need to work really really hard for God because it could come at any time. Maybe it's post trib and you need to invest in firearms and ready to eat meals. I say hope for the first and prepare for the second. Don't get dogmatic about it. It's such a stupid thing to get dogmatic about....

He's gonna come back, get dogmatic about that. Don't go arguing about when, especially sense not even Jesus knows.

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Nothing wrong with being dogmatic about what you are convinced the Bible says!

I am 100% convinced the Bible teaches Pre-Trib rapture - therefore I am being fully consistent in my stand. WHy should I waver in my declaration of doctrine? The Bible doesn't teach us to do that.

Of course, if someone has no definite position or is NOT settled doctrinally on that matter - then it would be ludicrous to be dogmatic.

So the question is: is someone convinced their stand is Biblical?

If so, stand firmly there.

If not, then declare it as your opinion and nothing more.

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Ok, I'll make myself very clear then:

I believe, without a doubt, that anyone who KNOWS it's pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, is fooling themselves.

You can believe what you want, but the arguments are there for all of them, and as far as pre or post trib, the biblical verses that back up both arguments are just as strong.

I fully believe, that with a study of scripture, and even using logical practices, you can't make a firm stand for either. There is just not enough evidence in scripture to discount one, or put one above the other.

You wanna get dogmatic about something, go ahead. But in being dogmatic what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong and must be corrected. If a church agrees with everything you stand for, except this issue, you see it as a church you cannot belong too or fellowship with, because dogmatic issues don't line up.

Realize exactly what it is you're so "serious" about, and ask yourself how in the world it matters. Oh, everything in the bible matters, don't get me wrong. Everything in the bible is worth studying as deeply as one wants. But no ones walk with God is effected by a pre-post rapture view. No ones salvation depends on a pre-post rapture view. No ones prayer life depends on a pre-post rapture view.

If you say it's a dogmatic issue, then I ask you WHY?!? Name one thing this would effect.

Rolf.. this is so what I was talking about:

I dodge talk about the rapture and end times more then anything else. I have found that nothing gets people more upset then any questioning of what they believe' date=' and usually what they believe is what they have been taught.[/quote']

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From Revelations 4:1 to Revelations 19:11 the church is not mentioned. Why? Because its in heaven, not on earth.

Jesus came in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18 and took it off the face of the earth up into heaven.

Surely, if Jesus' Church, as important as it is, was on this earth during that time it would have been mentioned.

No, Jesus' Church will not go thru the tribulations. But there will be people saved during that time, because of the stand they make for Jesus they will be murdered by the anti-christ.

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yea.. you know... I'm not gonna get into this with you. There is no argument, no bible verse, no "view" of things, that I haven't seen, and I've danced this dance to many times to bother watching you run around in circles trying to prove a non-provable point.

murdered by the anti-christ.

Unless you want me to point out stupid things like the fact there is no mention of an "anti-christ" in the book of revelation. There is no SINGLE person in the entire BIBLE called "the anti-christ"
Instead, anyone who's against God is called an anti-christ in 1st and 2nd John.

Of course, given that there is no mention of an anti-christ in the book of revelation, by your argument, that means in the end, there will be no anti-christs. Oh, no mention also of donuts, so those must have been made illegal and no longer exist at world's end.
You must have known this though, given that you're SUCH an expert on the rapture and end times, that you MUST be right about these things. Maybe your bible says anti-christ somewhere in revelation? Maybe you should check the cover for a 1611.

So if people are getting saved, they are not going to be part of the church? That's what you're saying.

Oh man, you know, I'm starting to get into it again.

Tell you what, you go nuts and respond about how smart you are, and how stupid I am.. go ahead and put your little verses that say nothing more then two people in a field and one is gone, and then say that fields are not mentioned in revelation so this must take place before the trib.. la la la la. Like I said, the arguments abound for both views, my view is no one should argue to strongly for any view, and some how you think after I already pointed out that I studied this greatly, that you can post a couple verses with a bad string of garbage and it proves you're right.

I think that's why I can't stop typing. I seriously feel insulted that you would think that I have not only never seen the verses on this topic, or heard those arguments, but you actually think that what you said means anything to anyone outside of people who read the left behind series.

Hey, you're an expert huh? How come Jesus let the people fold their clothing when they where raptured? Rolf.....

The funny thing is, I bet I can argue a pre-trib rapture better then you can. If what you just posted is any measure, seems like you think you can post one argument that's full of speculation and guess work and this is a solid argument for you?

Well, I said I wasn't gonna do it, but man that just sorta burns me when people do that. I don't harbor bad feelings toward you Jerry80871852, I mostly hate how I see so many Christians get passionate about needless stuff like pre-post trib, and I bet you hear someone drop a GD and you ignore it. Sweet priorities.

Well, he tried to win me over to pre-trib... any mid tribbers or post trib people wanna shoot their verses at me now? I mean, lets give fair room for it all huh? lol....

so silly

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They are many reason why the rapture is before the tribulations, I offered one of them, others have given you many other reason in previous post. I did not mention them because they have already been mentioned, put them all together, them you have a solid reason to believe the rapture takes place before the tribulations.

And you come up with.

<>

:uuhm: Now, who was it that said anyone was smart, or anyone was dumb?

Why bring that into the topic? Is that an attack on me and others who hold to the rapture before the tribulation and disagree with you?

Its uncalled for, completely uncalled for. And rightly has not place in this topic.

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Wow, Qwerty, first you say it doesn't matter - then you get all bent out of shape!

Besides, if the endtimes didn't matter - and the order of events didn't matter - then God wouldn't have put them in the Bible.

If all you are going to do is flaunt your ignorance and get all hot under the collar, perhaps you would be better off sticking to the threads you actually know something about.

Most people on these boards hold to a Pre-Trib stand - why? Because they are convinced that the Bible teaches that position.

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:uuhm: Now, who was it that said anyone was smart, or anyone was dumb?

Why bring that into the topic? Is that an attack on me and others who hold to the rapture before the tribulation and disagree with you?


Nope, not an attack on you, or any others. Like I said, I've had this conversation so many times before, I already know where it would head if I continued. No need for the gift of prophecy on that lol.

I don't disagree with a pre-trib rapture. I've stated my thoughts now a couple times.

If all you are going to do is flaunt your ignorance and get all hot under the collar' date=' perhaps you would be better off sticking to the threads you actually know something about.[/quote']

Just to point out here, you are not just saying I'm ignorant on this topic, but you have called me a liar. I have stated that I have done extensive study on this topic. I have read over 2 dozen books dealing with this, I have spent, as God as my witness, at least 80 hours of direct biblical study dealing with this. I have had many teachers and people who I've questioned extensively on this.

This is what I pointed out, I just got the Jerry's wrong I guess. You're now saying "I'm smart you're dumb" because you hold to a firm belief in pre-trib rapture, and I say you can't know that by the bible alone.

I don't care what people believe on the rapture. It SERIOUSLY does not matter in any regard to a person's Christian life. I think only a fool gets dogmatic about it. I have not engaged in any argument about it for this reason, this has been totally an argument about why it shouldn't be argued lol. I didn't realize people are so messed up on this.. wow.. arguing about not arguing.

I could give all the mid or post trib rapture verses and logic, but I assume they are already on this forum somewhere, and I also assume unless you've been 100% spoon fed your knowledge by a bible college, you know them also.

That's where I got upset... you see, I assume you have intellegence, and knowledge of such things, until you ask... You assume that I'm.. how did you put it? Ah yes.. you assume I'm ignorant, even though I had already stated I was not. You have this view of most people sir? That they are ignorant unless they have talked to you about things? Man... that's some uber ego ya got there.

I have NOT said that the end times do not matter... I have NOT said anyone who holds the pre-trib, or the post-trib, or the mid-trib stance is wrong. I like how you don't seem to catch on though...

Maybe you should go back, read what I really posted instead of getting all hot under the collar and mis-representing my view. I'd ask you stop insinuating that I'm a liar. I asked a question earlier, that this all comes down too. It's an easy question, no trick to it. Go look it up.

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Whats the point of the rapture if its at the end and why would one be left in the feild and the other taken? I dont know for sure, but I would beleive in mid tribulation before I would beleive in post tribulation. The KJV also says that God is going to send a strong delusion that they would beleive a lie. Sounds to me like the " Lie" would be something the anti christ would tell the world. This doesn sound like a post tribulation to me.

Julia

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Whats the point of the rapture if its at the end and why would one be left in the feild and the other taken? I dont know for sure, but I would beleive in mid tribulation before I would beleive in post tribulation. The KJV also says that God is going to send a strong delusion that they would beleive a lie. Sounds to me like the " Lie" would be something the anti christ would tell the world. This doesn sound like a post tribulation to me.

Julia


Israel rejected God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them at Mt Sinai, preferring God speak to Moses, then Mose could tell them what God said.

Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Israel still rejects God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them through the "COMFORTER/HOLY GHOST".
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 (GOD) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Israel didn't have a "COMFORTER" because of this, and it's the reason "PROPHETS" were sent to speak to Israel.

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, (by Jesus/God/Comforter/Holy Ghost)

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

The "Comforter" is the "VOICE OF JESUS/GOD" speaking "DIRECTLY" to people,

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice,

Just as the "Prophet system" of leadership ended when Jesus came, the "LAST TRUMP" of the "VOICE OF THE COMFORTER" will "RAPTURE" the Church and Israel will return under the "law and "PROPHETS" system for the tribulation period, the "TWO WITNESSES", Moses/Elijah, will again speak to Israel "FOR GOD".

Ec 4:1 and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

As long as the "COMFORTER" is "IN THE WORLD", power is on the side of the church, so "HE" must be "TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY"...BEFORE".. the AC can "PREVAIL" over the saints of the tribulation period.

"LEADERSHIP" by both God (law and prophets) and Jesus (Comforter/Holy Ghost) do not function in the same time frame, at the same time, the reason the "prophets system" stopped when Jesus/Comforter came, and the "prophets" (Two witnesses) won't return until Jesus Leaves. (rapture)

God was married to Israel, but made a wedding for his SON, and it's Unlawful for a man (Jesus) to have his father's (God) "WIFE".

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

In order for Israel to be married to Jesus they must become "Dead to the law", "Born again, New Creature.


Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead,

As "CHASTISEMENT" God does to Israel exactly what Paul wrote.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

At the time of the Rapture, Israel still hasn't accepted Jesus as Messiah, they haven't been "Born again", therefore they can't attend the "Lambs marriage supper" as the "BRIDE".

And since the "Comforter" is gone, "POWER" is on the side of their "OPPRESSOR", to "PREVAIL AGAINST THEM".

The "Church" only Spiritually crucifies the "old man" to destroy the "BODY OF SIN", because Jesus suffer the "STRIPES" of Chastisment in his "FLESH" for "Believers",

but as "CHASTISEMENT" for rejecting Jesus, God will require them to "LITERAL DIE" for Jesus's salvation as he had to die for their salvation. (drink of his cup)

God uses Satan/AC as a "ROD" to Chastise Israel.

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (Satan/AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

When Moses cast down his "ROD" down to the earth it turned into a "SERPENT", so does the "ROD" God uses to chastise Israel.

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (israel) which brought forth the man child.(Jesus)


Unless the "SPIRIT" teaches you the scripture, it's doesn't pay to be "DOGMATIC".

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From Revelations 4:1 to Revelations 19:11 the church is not mentioned. Why? Because its in heaven, not on earth.

Jesus came in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18 and took it off the face of the earth up into heaven.

Surely, if Jesus' Church, as important as it is, was on this earth during that time it would have been mentioned.

No, Jesus' Church will not go thru the tribulations. But there will be people saved during that time, because of the stand they make for Jesus they will be murdered by the anti-christ.



That is the 2nd coming, (the Lords return), and the 1st ress. As is suggested in 1 Thess 4 vs 14. Gathered up in the air is consistent with Matt 24:31 and Jesus will gather those that belong to Him. (After the distress of those days) I am positive that all saints will go through tribulation and be gathered up on the last day. By evening of that very day the Lord will be reigning in Israel. Zach 14:6-9 Behold He will come like a thief on that last day Rev 16:15. The bowl judgments are the last of Gods judgments Rev 15:1 and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness Rev 16:10

Randy

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Wrong, I humbly disagree, the saint will not go thru the tribulation period.

Reason, Jesus Chruch, the Holy Spirit, has to be taken out of the way before th Wicked on is revealed, when it is taken out of this world, all the saints will go with it.


7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thess 2:7-8 (KJV)

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