Biblical Marriage

[JerryNumbers]

<>

I'm sorry for you, when I married about 40 years ago I made a vow to God, not the state. Your just trying to avoid obeying the laws of the land, and God tells you to obey them who have authority over you.

And it will make no difference, abuse your children, and the government will take you children no matter what you call your marriage, and they should if you or wife abuse them.

What has happened, lately all these attacks on marriage, what marriage is?

[chev1958]

Interesting perspective on marriage, Cowboy Preacher. However, since you used Webster's 1828 to define marriage and license, let's look at its definition of coverture:

{COVERTURE}, n.
1. Covering; shelter; defense.
2. In law, the state of a married woman, who is considered as under cover, or the power of her husband, and therefore called a feme-covert, or femme-couvert. The coverture of a woman disables her from making contracts to the prejudice of herself or husband, without his allowance or confirmation.

From Webster's definition, a coverture "marriage" fits the secular definition more than what you call the "Godly" definition. Just because the state records a marriage doesn't mean the government is placing itself over God; it's simply keeping a record. And the government does allow certain benefits for married couples, and it needs to know who's in that marriage. Back when adultery was against the law, the marriage certificate could prove that a man and a woman living together were actually married. Do you also object to the "license" issued when a child is born, otherwise known as a birth certificate? If there was no birth certificate, how could you "prove" the child was yours when you apply that child credit at tax time? What about the "license" issued when someone dies (death certificate)?

According to Webster's 1828, there's no such thing as a coverture marriage. Coverture simply defines the role of a married woman.

Mitch

[Colin Stolzer]

<>

I'm sorry for you, when I married about 40 years ago I made a vow to God, not the state. Your just trying to avoid obeying the laws of the land, and God tells you to obey them who have authority over you.

And it will make no difference, abuse your children, and the government will take you children no matter what you call your marriage, and they should if you or wife abuse them.

What has happened, lately all these attacks on marriage, what marriage is?

Right, obey our government, unless it goes directly against God and the rules our government has set up on marriage does not go directly against God.

A couple of quick answers in the middle of the day before I head back out to work. First is not all Gov'ts are established by God and you do not have to abide by an ungodly Gov't. I think you're refering to Romans 13 but you really ought to read it for what it says. And if still in doubt read Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off. "They have set up kings, but not by me" not all Gov'ts are of God. If Romans 13 is were you are getting the "Authority over you" of Gov't you should check out http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/c ... 70810.html . Another thoght on Romans 13 is if that is the case that you are to obey all authority over you then america as a nation is in the wrong because the founding fathers were disobeying the authority that was set over them. As a country we have been disobeying God since the 1700's if that's what Romans 13 means.

Second, their first has to be a law for me to disobey it. I would like you to show me were it is law that I must have a marriage license? The only reason you need the license is so you can take advantage of the priviledges that come with that contract, if you're like me and don't take advantadge of any of those priviledges (ie tax credits or usary debt in a joint interest) you don't need the license.

You may have made a Vow to God but you signed the contract and God will hold you to the contract. What is bound here on earth God recognizes and holds you to it.

Interesting perspective on marriage, Cowboy Preacher. However, since you used Webster's 1828 to define marriage and license, let's look at its definition of coverture:

Quote:
{COVERTURE}, n.
1. Covering; shelter; defense.
2. In law, the state of a married woman, who is considered as under cover, or the power of her husband, and therefore called a feme-covert, or femme-couvert. The coverture of a woman disables her from making contracts to the prejudice of herself or husband, without his allowance or confirmation.

From Webster's definition, a coverture "marriage" fits the secular definition more than what you call the "Godly" definition. Just because the state records a marriage doesn't mean the government is placing itself over God; it's simply keeping a record. And the government does allow certain benefits for married couples, and it needs to know who's in that marriage. Back when adultery was against the law, the marriage certificate could prove that a man and a woman living together were actually married. Do you also object to the "license" issued when a child is born, otherwise known as a birth certificate? If there was no birth certificate, how could you "prove" the child was yours when you apply that child credit at tax time? What about the "license" issued when someone dies (death certificate)?

According to Webster's 1828, there's no such thing as a coverture marriage. Coverture simply defines the role of a married woman.

Mitch

I was going to start my post with the websters definition of coverture when I get it typed up. Coverture actually does define the marriage in biblical terms it sets the man as head of the household as Christ is the head of the Church. When I get it typed up and posted it will make more sense. The marriage has to be defined by biblical terms but in the english coverture best descibes the biblical principal of headship as it relates to marriage. God gave us a very clear picture of marriage and Christ used that picture to define his relationship to the Church and our personal marriages should reflect those definitions and pictures. The Gov't doesn't just record the marriage it is a contract just like any other contract with all the laws that apply to it. If it wasn't a contract with the state the state would have no power to tell you what you can and cannot do in your marriage. It most certainly does place the state above your marriage it gives them the authority and leaves God out. As to the licensing issue yes I have a problem with all the licensing in this country and no I do not have a birth certificate or a Social Security Number or a marriage license or a drivers license or any other Gov't contract everyone of those contract trades "rights" for "priviledges" and most of those trades involve setting God aside so you can have worldly benefits. I don't need to prove my children are mine because I don't use my children as an expense so no need for a tax credit. Once again it comes down to I didn't ask for the benefit so I don't need the license.

Gotta Go back out into the heat, I'll try to get the Coverture part typed up and explained tonight.

C

[chev1958]

Coverture actually does define the marriage in biblical terms it sets the man as head of the household as Christ is the head of the Church.

Yeah, I guess you're right on that one. I'm not sure where my comment came from. It's deadline week at the magazine and words are just pouring out of my head, but not necessarily in the right order. I'm still trying to figure out how having a marriage license puts the state over God. I've served under many IFSB pastors and have performed weddings myself, and none of them has expressed any concerns about marriage licenses. I'll be interested to see your postings.

If you think about it, God has more restrictions on marriage than the state does.

But I am a little offended by the implication that my "licensed" marriage (28 years come Sept. 1) is somehow less Scriptural and less Godly than yours. I can guarantee you that God is the head of our marriage, and we have had no further contact from the great state of North Carolina checking up on how well our marriage is doing. The only stipulations the government had was to make sure our blood types were compatible to ward off possible birth defects in our children; we were not close relatives; and that we were both physically present at the ceremony. I think those have Scriptural principles behind them, even if they're not addressed specifically. So, the only interest North Carolina has in our marriage is to keep a record of when it officially began.

Mitch

[JerryNumbers]

Mitch. Seems this is an issue like those who oppose the IRS and say they want pay taxes, only in his case he want buy a marriage licenses.

Or maybe he has a problem with authority and wants to buck the system.

He made this comment to me. <>

Of course God will hold me to the contract, but I much as said I made a vow to God when I said, "I do," so i don't understand what he is getting at.

Now Linda and I were not married in a church, but in her house, by her pastor, but I believe it was a wedding that God would have approved of. And it has stuck since May 18, 1968.

But that said, its amazing to this country preacher with all the different view we are getting on a Baptist board on what is a "Biblical Marriage."

[sarcrew]

Jerry808 says, "But that said, its amazing to this country preacher with all the different view we are getting on a Baptist board on what is a "Biblical Marriage.""

I agree Jerry, I actually started this thread because the diversity of thoughts expressed about divorce made me want to see if views on marriage were just as diverse. Looks like they are.

Wayne

Who knows though - maybe our discussions will help someone draw closer to the right path - (not saying I have a definitive answer though).

[HappyChristian]

Just a comment to throw in - licensing for marriages did begin after the Civil War, but...the Puritans were married by the civil magistrates, not preachers, because they believed that marriage was a civil union....

[Colin Stolzer]

COVERTURE, n.
1. Covering; shelter; defense.
2. In law, the state of a married woman, who is considered as under cover, or the power of her husband, and therefore called a feme-covert, or femme-couvert. The coverture of a woman disables her from making contracts to the prejudice of herself or husband, without his allowance or confirmation.

The Institution of Marriage
You'll have to look up the verses for yourself, besides it's good if you spend the time in the bible reading it for yourself.

Gen 2: 20-25
No helpmeet is found for man.
Man is made to sleep.
God takes a part of man and creates woman for his helpmeet.

Things to note about the first marriage:
God instituted it not man.
God married them.
Woman was created as a helpmeet for man
Woman was created from man, she is the same flesh. (oneness - not two equals)
Man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife.
CLEAVE, v.i.
1. To stick; to adhere; to hold to.
My bones cleave to my skin. Ps. 102.
Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth. Ps. 137.
Cleave to that which is good. Rom. 12.
2. To unite aptly; to fit; to sit well on.
3. To unite or be united closely in interest or affection; to adhere with strong attachment.
A man shall leave father and mother, and cleave to his wife. Gen. 2. Math. 19.
Cleave to Jehovah your God. Josh. 23.
Exodus 21: 1-11
Marriage of servants.

Leviticus 22: 9-13
Daughters of priests
Clean in her fathers house.
Unclean if she marries a stranger.
Clean if she widows or divorces and returns to her fathers house.
This show headship of father or husband over household in the context of priests table O.T.

Numbers 12:1
God doesn't care about color. yellow, green, purple, white, black, red - God didn't oppose moses marriage, people did.

Number 36
Keeping in the context of the passage the daughters were not allowed to marry outside of the fathers tribe because the inheritance would be lost to another tribe. Once again another context of male headship in marriage, this time concerning property.

Deut 7
The Isrealites are commanded not to marry from the heathe nations. This still applies to Christians, believers should not marry unbelievers.

Deut 24
Mosaic Law of divorce.
The man can divorce hiswife for uncleanness but the woman cannot divorce her husband. As compared to the State marriage license contract, were the State doesn't care who starts the divorce proceeding.

Neh 13: 23-27
Warning to Isrealites not to marry outside of the nation of Isreal - This principal carries through to the N.T. christian not to marry an unbeliever. The temptation to be led away from God is greater when yoked to unbelievers.

Pro 21: 9, 19
Pro 25: 24
Some examples or recomendations relating to woman and men living under the same roof in strife.

Pro 30: 18-23
Solomon in his wisdom didn't understand why any man would marry an adultering or odious woman. This should tell you to chose your wife carefully.

Song of Solomon
The whole book speaks of the communion betwen Bride and Bridegroom, this is also the same communion that Christ speaks of in the N.T. as his relationship to the church. If you don't understand the relationship just from reading the Song of Solomon, then I recommend a book titled "A Love For All Seasons". I can't remember the Author right now but it is an excellent study of the Song of Solomon. Once you understand the relationship laid out in the Song of Solomon you can have a truly deep love for your spouse. The Ultimate marriage is to Love your wife as Christ loved the same as Christ loves the Church.

Isaiah 62: 4-5
God the Father (bridegroom) rejoicing over Isreal (bride) because his bride is restored to righteousness under his headship. What a great passage about coverture.

Mark 10: 3-12
In this verse we see Christ apply O.T. to the institution of marriage.
God institutes marriage.
Cleave to your wife.
One flesh not two equals
God is the only one who can seperate what he joins. In comparison the State says they have the power and takes God out of the institution by making the husband and wife 2 equals below the State and that they then have the power to seperate what they joined. This is the opposite of what God says.

Romans 7
The woman is bond to her husband so long as he lives.

I Cor 7
This chapter is Paul's recomendation concerning marriage.

Hebrew 13:4
Marriage in honourable in all and the bed undefiled.
What a husband and wife do in the bed of marriage is acceptable to God. Anything other than a husband and wife is unacceptable. (ie unmarried people)

I Tim 5:14
This speaks to widows remarrying but this is good principal that can be applied to marriage in general.
The younger woman to marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

I Cor 11: 1-3
Headship
God then Christ then then man then woman, in that order.

I Cor 11: 8-9
The woman is for the man.

I Cor 11: 11-12
Woman if OF the man.
Man is BY the woman.
All things of God.
Oneness with God.

Matt 19: 4-6
One flesh joined by God, man does not have the authority to join together or put asunder.

Eph 5:21-23
The perfect picture of marriage.
The marriage shoulb be an exact copy of the marriage between Christ and the Church.
Headship, Submission, Love, Nourishment (Spiritual, Physical, Emotional), Cherishing one another, Oneness, Reverence.

I Pet 3: 1-7
Subjection, headship, honour, oneness.

There are prophetic pictures in Revelations 19 and 21 of marriage between Christ and the Church.

Numbers 30
The law of Vows - these are the laws given to Moses concerning obligations of vows.

Study these out and You can get a very good idea of what Biblical marriage means. As compared to what the State calls marriage.

The best analogy I can give of coverture is to think of it like an umbrella. God is the pole that runs through the whole thing and resides clear at the top and his word is the frame work that suports the covering and runs through it. The covering is the man (husband/ father/ head of household) all the things under the umbrella are the things the Man is responsible for.

C

[JerryNumbers]

Yes, the states do allow divorce, but the child of God should not do such a thing, except for one reason, and even them they ought to do everything possible to reconcile and stay away from divorcing.

Those who chose to divorce, the state does not make them divorce, its their own fault.

Each couple who marries chose for their marriages to be like God intends it to be or not to be.

Sad to say, many men will not take the position in a marriage that God means for him to have, that is the fault of the man, not the state.

[John81]

Jerry808 says, "But that said, its amazing to this country preacher with all the different view we are getting on a Baptist board on what is a "Biblical Marriage.""

I agree Jerry, I actually started this thread because the diversity of thoughts expressed about divorce made me want to see if views on marriage were just as diverse. Looks like they are.

Wayne

I agree! It was rather shocking to see some of the notions on marriage and divorce coming from Baptists! :eek

[IM4given]

I lived in a remote area where a "marriage" was merely two people who "jumped the broom" together, and for all intents and purposes they were married, and a divorce was merely one party putting all the belongings of the second party out on the front lawn. All rather quite simple. No muss, no fuss, and only an occassional shooting (and a lot of drinking) was involved. I have attended no fewer than 3 shotgun weddings in my life, in which the bride-to-be was also a mom-to-be.

What I do not understand are these young brides who insist on spending thousands of dollars to have a lavishly catered fairy princess bride weddings, and do not even have enough money to make a down payment on a house. Divorces from said fairy princesses are long drawn out nasty processes, especially with children involved and the only ones who win are the attorneys, because they get their money no matter what. Not good at all.

[chev1958]

Thanks for posting all that, CowboyPreacher. However, wouldn't you say that all those things apply to Christians? No matter what the state says, a Christian should follow the Biblical principles. Just because the state allows easy divorce doesn't mean a Christian has to divorce. In fact, if God is the head of the marriage, then the marriage would be strengthened even more to abide by state laws.

Since you and I are both fond of Webster's 1828, let's look at his definition of marriage:

MAR'RIAGE, n. L.mas, maris. The act of uniting a man and woman for life; wedlock; the legal union of a man and woman for life. Marriage is a contract both civil and religious, by which the parties engage to live together in mutual affection and fidelity, till death shall separate them. Marriage was instituted by God himself for the purpose of preventing the promiscuous intercourse of the sexes, for promoting domestic felicity,and for securing the maintenance and education of children.

Marriage was instituted by God, but the state (actually society) has a vested interest in keeping strong marriages. But there's nothing in your postings that suggests filing for a marriage license is putting the state above God. In my marriage, we will strive to follow God's outlines for our marriage. Now, if the state comes in and tells us that we must divorce, then we'll have some issues to deal with. But just filling out a little paperwork to get married is not going against God.

Sure, states have made it easier to divorce, but as Jerry808 stated, it's the couple who decided to get divorced. The state doesn't. Divorced has increased because it's easier to get one nowadays, but is that necessarily the state's fault? If marriages - especially Christian ones - put God first in their unions, then there would be fewer divorces even if it's easier to get one. There's a lot more going wrong with Christian marriages today than obtaining marriage licenses.

Mitch

[Colin Stolzer]

Lets look at this from a biblical perspective God says the order of authority over marriage is God then Christ then man then woman (man and woman being joined as one) and I sighted scripture in my last post to back this up. Could you tell me were in that order the gov't falls in and sight scripture please?

The State says the order is The State at the top of the contract in a superior position they don't recognize God at all and the woman has an equal say in authority over the contract as the man not in subjection to the head of her household. Can you show me how the state in anyway complies with God's picture of marriage?

You can be married under contract and still obey God so long as you never have a cause to involve the state, the state will stay passive in your marriage but that doesn't mean you are actually folowing God's picture of marriage.

In the Brown case in the north east (Conneticut or New hampshire I think) the Federal Gov't compelled the wife to seperate from her husband under court order and was seeking a court ordered divorce to compel her to testify against her husband. That case alone tells me that the state has power over the marriage. Niether of the Browns wants a divorce. I haven't followed up on the case to see what happened but it should give a clear indication of the authority the state thinks they have.

The issue isn't just about divorce though, study out what God says about how you are to bring up a child then look at what the position the marriage license gives the State over your children. God says that as a christian your children are to be brought up in a way that is honoring to him and in subjection of the parents because they belong to him (God). The states have repeatedly said that the parents have no rights to there children and are only allowed to raise their children at the discretion of the state. And yes I can dig through my books and find the Court rulings to back up that statement.

C

[chev1958]

The State says the order is The State at the top of the contract in a superior position they don't recognize God at all

Preamble to the Kansas Constitution:

We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges, in order to insure the full enjoyment of our rights as American citizens, do ordain and establish this constitution of the state of Kansas,

Sounds like Kansas officially recognizes God -- but just like the rest of America, it may not practice that anymore.

Kansas statute 23-101. Nature of marriage relation. (a) The marriage contract is to be considered in law as a civil contract between two parties who are of opposite sex. (Biblical) All other marriages are declared to be contrary to the public policy of this state and are void. (Biblical) The consent of the parties is essential. (questionable). (not necessarily unbiblical because some requirements are Biblical) ( The state of Kansas shall not recognize a common-law marriage contract if either party to the marriage contract is under 18 years of age. (Scripture doesn't address ages of marriage.)

and the woman has an equal say in authority over the contract as the man not in subjection to the head of her household.

Again, just because the state allows it doesn't mean the marriage is unbiblical. And who's to say God didn't originally intend for Adam and Eve to be co-equals. Eve was created to be Adam's helper, but she could've had equal authority with Adam when it came to family decisions. Only after the Fall did God establish that Adam would rule over her. If Adam was to rule over her initially, why did God have to say anything afterward?

Can you show me how the state in anyway complies with God's picture of marriage?

By statute, the state outlaws marriage other than between a man and a woman. That's essentially what God established.

I shown you several instances where the state complies with God's institution of marriage. If the state didn't get involved, there would be no stopping sodomite marriages, bestiality, incest, polygamy, etc. And, by the way, God instituted government as well, so both institutions can work hand in hand. When families and government live for God, there would be no disharmony between the two institutions. But since society and government have turned away from God, now we have some conflict between the two. But I believe society started turning away from God first, because many "Godly" laws have been repealed (sodomy included) because of society's desires, not because the government just wanted to. Living together without being marriage was against the law at one time, but society essentially forced that law to be repealed.

You have yet to prove that filling out a simple document recording a marriage violates Scripture. In fact, all you've shown is that state law "allows" a woman to be on equal footing in a marital relationship as her husband. And I've shown you that's it's possible that that particular scenario could've been what God originally intended.

By the way, a marriage without a license (common-law marriage) is considered "legal" by state statute when certain conditions are met. Therefore, even your coverture marriage falls under state guidelines.

Maybe some of the statutes regarding marriage you disagree with. The only one I could find that I really bothered me was

23-202. A married person, while the marriage relation subsists, may bargain, sell and convey his or her real and personal property and enter into any contract.

That appears to allow one member of the marital relationship to enter into contracts without the other's consent. I, for one, wouldn't do that without my wife's advice. She may not consent, but she leaves the final decision to me and I'll ask for her advice before I make that final decision.

And the marriage certificate has nothing to do with your children, so that's not even a valid argument. The state can and will take away the children produced in a common-law or coverture marriage if certain conditions apply. I disagree a lot with the state's assumed power for families in general, but that's because families - even Christian ones - don't put God first in their lives. If they did, the state wouldn't have to get involved.

Mitch

[Colin Stolzer]

Sounds like Kansas officially recognizes God -- but just like the rest of America, it may not practice that anymore.

yeah, and Satan recognizes God too, that doesn't mean he obeys him.

The marriage contract is to be considered in law as a civil contract between two parties who are of opposite sex.

Can you show me the scripture that supports this? The only part of this statement that is biblical is opposite sex.

All other marriages are declared to be contrary to the public policy of this state and are void.

All marriages not contracted through the state are void. Show me from scripture were the State has the power to seperate what God joins?

but the marriage relation shall only be entered into, maintained or abrogated as provided by law.

Show me from scripture were the State has the power to regulate God's institution of marriage?

not necessarily unbiblical because some requirements are Biblical)

Just because part of something is based in scripture then means all should be abided by. Thats not very sound reasoning, a little poison is alright as long as you mix good food with it right?

The state of Kansas shall not recognize a common-law marriage contract if either party to the marriage contract is under 18 years of age.

Most states now days do not recognize common law marriage, but for the record I was only 17 years old when I married my wife. Also for the record I was not married in Kansas I only moved here a few years ago when we inherited the land.

Again, just because the state allows it doesn't mean the marriage is unbiblical. And who's to say God didn't originally intend for Adam and Eve to be co-equals. Eve was created to be Adam's helper, but she could've had equal authority with Adam when it came to family decisions. Only after the Fall did God establish that Adam would rule over her. If Adam was to rule over her initially, why did God have to say anything afterward?

I've never had the opportunity to live in the prefall garden would have been nice though. I unfortunately have to live with the post fall problems and God set the man over the woman in the marriage.

By statute, the state outlaws marriage other than between a man and a woman. That's essentially what God established.

I'll give you that one that is one place were the state actually complies with God's will. That still doesn't make the rest of it right. The same analogy of a little poison is alright if you mix it with good food right?

You have yet to prove that filling out a simple document recording a marriage violates Scripture. In fact, all you've shown is that state law "allows" a woman to be on equal footing in a marital relationship as her husband. And I've shown you that's it's possible that that particular scenario could've been what God originally intended.

We are a long way from what God originally intended I have to live in the here and now and God's word still applies. You haven't shown scripture to back up contract marriage in God's law. But I can show you scripture were you aren't to serve two masters and setting the state over anything in your life that God hasn't allowed the state to govern is serving two masters.

By the way, a marriage without a license (common-law marriage) is considered "legal" by state statute when certain conditions are met. Therefore, even your coverture marriage falls under state guidelines.

Nope I was married at age 17, no state in the union recognizes that age as of consent, but God doesn't say anything about age.

That appears to allow one member of the marital relationship to enter into contracts without the other's consent. I, for one, wouldn't do that without my wife's advice. She may not consent, but she leaves the final decision to me and I'll ask for her advice before I make that final decision.

Asking your wife's advice is a good idea but the desicions according to God are the responsibility of the man (head of household).

And the marriage certificate has nothing to do with your children, so that's not even a valid argument.

You should spend some time in a law library researching Chattel property laws and the way the state applies that to marriage. Your children are viewed by the state as chattel property of the contract.

C