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tired

2 Thessalonians 2:2-6?

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I guess what I am cofused about is' date=' is the day of Christ the rapture or armageddon?[/quote']

A careful study of scripture will show that the "day of Christ", as the "day of the Lord", runs from the rapture all the way to the creation of the new heavens and earth. The context lets you know this.

Specifically, the day of Christ in II Thessalonians 2 is the day of "our gathering together unto him" mentioned in verse one.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him"

This gathering will occur at the rapture and seems to lead right into the "judgement seat of Christ" since everytime Paul uses the term "day of Christ" he is referring to the judgement of the saints.

Philippians 1:10- That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Philippians 2:16- Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Bill

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1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

According to this scripture, the ressurection and rapture of the living take place at the same time.

Revelation 20:4-5:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If this is the "FIRST" ressurection, how is it possible there was a pre-tribulation rapture? The FIRST ressurection clearly takes place after the tribulation; and according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the rapture of those living takes place at the same time. To say different would be saying the Bible is fallable. I know it to be infallable.


You are no alone. Many Christians agree in that those left alive at the 2nd coming will be gathered up, but not to return to heaven. The purpose will be to cloth those left alive on earth at that time with new bodies that never wear out. Zech 14 suggests all this action happens in one day. More scripture for post trib surprise gathering Rev 16:15 The bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness and are the last of Gods judgments as stated in rev 15 and 16 The Lord Himself never taught a pre pull out of anyone before the tribulation. I don't believe Paul did either. I believe Paul was speaking of that last day at the 2nd coming. The Lord is coming to reign with those that belong to Him.

Randy

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The coming of the Lord is what is being restrained.

Paul was saying very clearly that Jesus return was not coming at any moment, there was an exception to his coming, some things that must precede his return.

What is restraining this from happening?

*a falling away, and that man of sin be revealed*
How do we know that it's Jesus coming that is being hindered and not the man of sin?

Paul said that day (Day of Christ) shall not come except!

Now read these verses in context:

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

(Suffering is a part of Gods plan for us. 2 Tim 3:12 is one example of that.)

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(What revelation are we talking about ? It's the revelation of Jesus.)

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(Note that he doesn't separate his coming from our gathering unto him.)

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

( Immanency as it is taught today, the any moment return of Christ is a deception. )

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except , there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(Here is where most everyone loses it, that day shall not come except! What day? Not 2 days , not 2 more comings , no, that day! The day he returns and gathers us unto himself . There is an exception to his return . A restrainer , something that is withholding that revelation. This is an area of deception , not just a difference of opinion.

What (who) is the restrainer?

It's the man of sin!

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? ?

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he (Jesus) might be revealed in his time.

Very few understand this text , they are trying to make it say something it doesn't. If you read the passage with Jesus "that he (Jesus) might be revealed in his time." makes much more sense , not to mention you don't have to speculate because the letter was just that , a letter not some cryptic message.

How do we know who or what the restrainer is?

Paul said. "I told you these things, and then says and now you know."

Folks it doesn't get any clearer than that.

Who is NOT being restrained?

2 thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity (spirit of antichrist) doth already work: only he (the antichrist , man of sin) who now letteth ( restrains or withholds ) will let (restrain or withholds), until he (antichrist) be taken out of the way.
See! That's how the restrainer can be both a he and an it.)

(The spirit of antichrist was already at work, but the antichrist himself was not yet revealed thus hindering or restraining or withholding Jesus revelation in his time according to God's plan.)

(1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Jesus himself told us antichrist was coming first and said he ( Jesus) is coming after the tribulation and that before his coming the sun would be darkened and the moon blood , he also asked the question when he would come would there be faith on the earth "the falling away".Most importantly he said Behold I have told you before.

If the restrainer is the man of sin and taken out of the way in v2:7, how can he be then be revealed in v8?

2Th 2:8 And then (at that time) shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I get accused of avoiding the word "then" in vs 8, most of us need an English lesson not a Greek lexicon.
When you add the word "and" in front of the word "then" it changes the meaning.

The strongs number for then is 5119 and is also translated (that time forth) (that time) (still) (when).

Read the definition of the word and a few times and then read it again and again it is a conjunction, remember the song during morning cartoons as a kid, "Conjunction junction what's your function? Hooking up clauses and phrases and everything!"

AND

and is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes.


THEN

then is an adverb
1. At that time, referring to a time specified, either past or future.

2. Afterward: soon afterward or immediately.

3. In that case; in consequence.

4. Therefore; for this reason.

5. At another time; as now and then, at one time and another.

6. That time.

The passage flows smoothly with this understanding.

G5119
From (the neuter of) G3588 and G3753; the when, that is, at the time that (of the past or future, also in consecution): - that time, then.

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The coming of the Lord is what is being restrained.

2 thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity (spirit of antichrist) doth already work: only he (the antichrist , man of sin) who now letteth ( restrains or withholds ) will let (restrain or withholds), until he (antichrist) be taken out of the way.
See! That's how the restrainer can be both a he and an it.)



If the restrainer is the man of sin and taken out of the way in v2:7, how can he be then be revealed in v8?


2Th 2:8 And then (at that time) shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Take another look in this light:
2 thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (God) who now letteth will let, until he (the Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way.

Those who are left for antichrist's reign will not have the benefit of the comforter. Selah!

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I agree with Hambone. He that "witholdeth" is not the Holy Ghost. Most folks assume that the "he" in "he who now letteth" is the Holy Ghost but there is nothing in the passage to suggest that. That is pure private interpretation. The ANTECEDENT of "he" in the passage of scripture is the "man of sin".

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1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


The thessalonians had been lied to. They were afraid the rapture and/or day of the Lord had already occured. Paul assured then that it had not. But he tells them that "The wicked" which shall be "revealed" was ALREADY working in their day, as it is still working right now. This "spirit of iniquity" WANTS to exalt himself....he isn't about "holding himself back" or "restraining" himself. The Holy Spirit is a PERSON, and HE is the restrainer. But His home or "temple" is INSIDE every beleiver. Therefore, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of this world, I beleive, at the same moment we who are saved are. When He is taken out, all restraint will be lifted and ALL wickedness will be unleashed on this world, without restraint. It will be horrible.

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Tired,

Please make serious note that the theory of the Spirit of God being removed is subjective and pure speculation. It is impossible to make a hard case for the removal of the Spirit WITH the scriptues, it can only be made in the minds of men.

Take God's word at face value. Paul said this:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That day, the day of Christ, shall not come not might not come, or should not come, but shall not come until two things happen:
1. The great falling away.
2. The man of sin be revealed.

Do not add to or take away from the word of God. This does not have to deviate into a discussion into when will the rapture be, only that we know, it is not going to happen until two things happen first. A brief survey of the climate of modern day Christendom will answer point #1. We've seen the pattern of falling away for the last 2000 years, but in these days we are living in, the apostate church is on every corner with their Joel Osteen feel good Christianity. This, my brother, is the falling away in our day.

There is only one more thing that will occur, according to scripture, if you are a literalist...the man of sin being revealed.

Trust God's sequence of events and do not let speculation and subjective reasoning change God's word.

Ben

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Ben,
If you are saying that these are born again Christians who "fall away", will they be here during the tribulation period? And will some of these take the mark of the beast?


No, I'm not saying these are actual "born again" believers who fall away, but shallow professors who only have a head knowledge and not genuine regeneration. Not being saved in the first place, they will be prime targets for the mark, because they have not the Spirit of God to guide them. IF (and I'm reluctant to answer this because I do not want this discussion to go off on a tangent, it has been excellent,) if there were believers in the Tribulation, I don't believe "real" believers would take the mark because those who take the mark are doomed for hell and Jesus told us his sheep hear his voice, and he knows them, and they follow him, and he gives them eternal life and no man shall pluck them from his hand (praise God!)

Ben

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I'm not so sure the "falling away" involves believers. I think it's more along the line of John 6:66.

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

These disciples were never saved. Just as an being called an apostle didn't mean someone was saved the same with being a disciple. I think the falling away are those mentioned in vs 10. They knew the truth but never received it.

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"fall away"?
Don't you have to be somewhere, before you can be "away"?
And don't you have to be at a higher elevation, before you can "fall"?

Wasn't this guy a saved man? Looks like he "fell away" don't it? He certainly wasn't walking with God at this point........ 1Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

I think the alot of the "falling away" includes what we are seeing now.....
......failing to rightly divide the word of truth......

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1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

heartstrings, you said:

"fall away"?
Don't you have to be somewhere, before you can be "away"?
And don't you have to be at a higher elevation, before you can "fall"?


Accoding to these verses, those who would be in association with believers would depart from the faith. This does not insist they were believers, but actually clearly states that they..."have a form of godliness, but denied the power thereof. Even as Hebrews talks of those who came all the way up to the point of saving faith, but falling short, turned back and had no other sacrifice. So, yes there are many who have climbed, as it were to an elevated understanding, but have not yet made the jump to "the faith."

In the body of Christ, their are many who really never were saved. They may have said a prayer, or maybe not, but either way, they are not saved. That is why Paul gave the admonition:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

In light of the verses beginning this post:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul was warning both those in his era to not be deceived by the false teachers of his day, and this verse is to us as well at the "other end" of the era to likewise not be deceived because the the mystery of iniquity is already at work and is upping it's work as the end draws near.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

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Sorry, but I've read this passage over and over and if you follow the grammatical laws of English the man of sin is the one who is hindering. It doesn't quit make sense. How was he hindering in Paul's day? The only possible explanation is that there has always been a man of sin or someone who could fill that role but for some reason, most likely the faithfulness of the church in striving for sound doctrine and getting the gospel out, he has never materialized into the son of perdition. The only way this will occur is when he is "taken out of the way" or murdered then pulls off a pseudo-resurrection like he is the Christ of God. The man sin has not been revealed as the son of perdition yet. Also, the fact that there is no temple and that it has never been rebuilt also has hinder this. How can he sit down in the temple of God when there is none?

The common thing for people to do is to reject what a passage of scripture is clearly SAYING when they don't understand it or it doesn't make sense. Then they fall back onto something that is more familiar like that the Holy Ghost is "he who letteth". Yet there is NOTHING IN THE PASSAGE that say "he" is the Holy Ghost. The antecedent of "he" is the man of sin.

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Sorry, but I've read this passage over and over and if you follow the grammatical laws of English the man of sin is the one who is hindering. It doesn't quit make sense. How was he hindering in Paul's day? The only possible explanation is that there has always been a man of sin or someone who could fill that role but for some reason, most likely the faithfulness of the church in striving for sound doctrine and getting the gospel out, he has never materialized into the son of perdition. The only way this will occur is when he is "taken out of the way" or murdered then pulls off a pseudo-resurrection like he is the Christ of God. The man sin has not been revealed as the son of perdition yet. Also, the fact that there is no temple and that it has never been rebuilt also has hinder this. How can he sit down in the temple of God when there is none?

The common thing for people to do is to reject what a passage of scripture is clearly SAYING when they don't understand it or it doesn't make sense. Then they fall back onto something that is more familiar like that the Holy Ghost is "he who letteth". Yet there is NOTHING IN THE PASSAGE that say "he" is the Holy Ghost. The antecedent of "he" is the man of sin.


Well I only believe in one surprise visit of the Lord and a gathering at that time of the saints. (2nd coming) Post trib Rev 16:15.

It is seen by many that the beast or man of lawlessness or angel of the abyss is locked away. (restrained) The release and false miracles that follow deceive the world into following the beast. (not meaning the elect)

The man of lawlessness will reveal himself to the world by declaring himself to be God in Gods temple and Rev 11 speaks to us of more than a inner sanctuary. The man of lawlessness will not rise by human power and will be destroyed by the Lords return.

Randy

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1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

heartstrings, you said:


Accoding to these verses, those who would be in association with believers would depart from the faith. This does not insist they were believers, but actually clearly states that they..."have a form of godliness, but denied the power thereof. Even as Hebrews talks of those who came all the way up to the point of saving faith, but falling short, turned back and had no other sacrifice. So, yes there are many who have climbed, as it were to an elevated understanding, but have not yet made the jump to "the faith."

In the body of Christ, their are many who really never were saved. They may have said a prayer, or maybe not, but either way, they are not saved. That is why Paul gave the admonition:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

In light of the verses beginning this post:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul was warning both those in his era to not be deceived by the false teachers of his day, and this verse is to us as well at the "other end" of the era to likewise not be deceived because the the mystery of iniquity is already at work and is upping it's work as the end draws near.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.





PreacherBen,
You have used two separate passages: one for 1 Timothy and one for 2 Timothy.
But only one of these passages is speaking about the UNSAVED...and that is the one you quoted fro 2 Timothy 3. 1Timothy 4 is speaking to saved people; actually, it's also warning Timothy himself.....

1 Timothy 4
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; It says "some" shall depart: depart from what? "The faith". If "some" departed, then "all" did not depart right? Depart from what? "the faith"....the same thing. So what were they ALL in before "some" departed? HOW did they depart? Read the verse....it says by giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils...and what are "doctrines of devils"?? They're false doctrines aren't they? So after you "give heed" to a false doctrine (such as Calvinism) what do you do? You go along with it don't you?

2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Then you start teaching that false doctrine to others

3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. Why is he warning "the brethren"? Because "the brethren" are susceptible.
7But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. Now Paul is WARNING Timothy himself to not "give heed".

8For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11These things command and teach.

12Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Is it possible that Timothy would neglect to do these things? Yes, or Paul wouldn't have admonished him.

13Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine Paul is telling Timothy to "be thou an example" in DOCTRINE. Why? Is it possible that Timothy would not? Yes, else there would be no warning from Paul.
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Timothy is also susceptible to neglect, otherwise there would be no need for Paul to warn him of that either.

15Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. How is Timothy going to accomplish this? By diligently meditating on the things in verses 13 and 14.

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. Now what could happen to Timothy, if he did not take heed to the doctrine? What could happen if Timothy did not "continue" in the doctrine? It's not talking about "save" as in "salvation"; It's saying that if Timothy "takes heed" to "himself" and the "doctrine", he wills save himself from the pitfall of giving heed to "seducing Spirits" and "false doctrine".

The whole chapter is speaking directly to Timothy and 'the brethren".....to saved people.
He warns Timothy himself at least THREE times in the passage, to stay with good doctrine.

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Heartstrings, you said,

PreacherBen,
You have used two separate passages: one for 1 Timothy and one for 2 Timothy.
But only one of these passages is speaking about the UNSAVED...and that is the one you quoted fro 2 Timothy


I don't see the difference for either group. Both have the signs of those who may or may not be saved.

The rest is good logic. I agree. I think this would be consistent with:

1Cr 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

If we stray from the fundamentals of the faith, we will have an adverse affect on the future of good doctrine and affect those who will believe afterwards. Some will believe in Christ unto salvation, only to have their faith affected in a ill manner by watered down holiness, or weak and shallow doctrine. Some on the other hand, will actually NOT be saved, and make a unfounded profession, you know, 123, say this prayer. the churches are full of them. These are those who appear to be in the faith, they are professors, but not posessors. Many of these will turn from the faith (they practice, but don't truely have,) and trust antichrist when he comes.

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Heartstrings, you said,


I don't see the difference for either group. Both have the signs of those who may or may not be saved.

The rest is good logic. I agree. I think this would be consistent with:

Speaking to saved people
1Cr 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cr 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Also Speaking to saved people
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Speaking about the Unsaved---and false doctrine
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

If we stray from the fundamentals of the faith, we will have an adverse affect on the future of good doctrine and affect those who will believe afterwards. Some will believe in Christ unto salvation, only to have their faith affected in a ill manner by watered down holiness, or weak and shallow doctrine. Some on the other hand, will actually NOT be saved, and make a unfounded profession, you know, 123, say this prayer. the churches are full of them. These are those who appear to be in the faith, they are professors, but not posessors. Many of these will turn from the faith (they practice, but don't truely have,) and trust antichrist when he comes.

The passage you mentioned in 1 Timothy 4, is speaking of departing from the faith...and it is warning Timothy himself to hold to sound doctrine. It is not speaking about departing from a "profession" of faith. Read what it says. A "professor" was never in the faith to begin with...he only has "a form of godliness and denies the power thereof". In other words....if you got folk in your church who made a false profession, they've never been "in the faith", they don't even know God! How can they depart from the faith? On the other hand if you've got some who are truly born again, and some false teacher slips into your church and starts sneaking in a little Calvinism, then false doctrine is beginning to creep in. Pretty soon, saved folk who fail to read and study their Bibles for themselves, are going to start swallowing it hook line and sinker and then propagate it themselves. There are folks deceived by Calvinism, who post on these forums as well as folks messed up on the security of the believer. It can creep into a doctrinally sound church too. Once again, 1 Timothy 4 is speaking of warning of those "seducing spirits and doctrines of devils". And saved folk who don't believe things like "doctrines of grace" and "once saved now lost" theology are examples of "doctrines of devils" are "giving heed" to seducing spirits [bible]1 Timothy 4[/bible]

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Heartstrings, you said:

And saved folk who don't believe things like "doctrines of grace" and "once saved now lost" theology are examples of "doctrines of devils" are "giving heed" to seducing spirits 1 Timothy 4


O.k., now I know we are vearing off the path from II Thess. 2, but, you have boldly said that those who believe these examples, i.e.,doctrines of grace" and "once saved now lost" theology are examples of "doctrines of devils, and listening to "seducing spirits" as opposed to what "saved folk" believe. Here are a couple of questions for you:

1. Was C.H. Spurgeon, a Calvinist who believed the "doctrines of grace" saved?
2. Was John Wesley, an Arminian who believed in the apostate "falling from the faith," saved?

This type of rhetoric makes good preaching, but bad doctrine of itself. Please be clear and tell it like it is, Spurgeon, Whitfield, Wesley, etc. were men who taught "doctrines of devils" and listened to "seducing spirits," and did not believe what "saved folk" believe. Do I have that right?

Ben

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We must make things clear that we do not put our trust in Spurgeon, Wesley or any other preacher. Only God knows if those men are saved or not. Spurgeon was a good preacher but did have his errors.

?I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I think so' date=' I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to ?have the pre-eminence,? and I cannot conceive how He could have the pre-eminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in Paradise?[/quote']
Now I clearly believe that is contrary to the Bible. [bible]Matthew 7:14[/bible] "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."


My point in all of this is, it is better to use Scripture to back our points than try and use what other preachers teach. Stick to the Bible.

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Bro. Matt,
I like to bring attention to this logic because it is the equivalent to RCC persecution of the "heretics." No, we don't tie them up and set them on fire, but what we do and what we allow is to micro-define "the faith" in such a way that all those outside of "our" definition are the "real heretics" and we all then know whom to disdain and set at nought. Yes, God has held up a great deal of strong truth through many good IFB men, BUT, Baptist fundamentalism is "a" movement of God, not "the" movement of God. To label our brethren of the faith who have gone on before us as those who...believe things like "doctrines of grace" and "once saved now lost" theology are examples of "doctrines of devils" are "giving heed" to seducing spirits...IS WRONG. I may disagree with someone's personal view of a theological issue, but if they proclaim saving faith in the finished work of Jesus Chris on the cross of Calvary, and ascribe the wonders of their salvation ALL a work of grace, we should not, so quickly, and without attention, let them be deemed such, by beloved brethren.

:2cents

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Bro. Matt,
I like to bring attention to this logic because it is the equivalent to RCC persecution of the "heretics." No, we don't tie them up and set them on fire, but what we do and what we allow is to micro-define "the faith" in such a way that all those outside of "our" definition are the "real heretics" and we all then know whom to disdain and set at nought. Yes, God has held up a great deal of strong truth through many good IFB men, BUT, Baptist fundamentalism is "a" movement of God, not "the" movement of God. To label our brethren of the faith who have gone on before us as those who...believe things like "doctrines of grace" and "once saved now lost" theology are examples of "doctrines of devils" are "giving heed" to seducing spirits...IS WRONG. I may disagree with someone's personal view of a theological issue, but if they proclaim saving faith in the finished work of Jesus Chris on the cross of Calvary, and ascribe the wonders of their salvation ALL a work of grace, we should not, so quickly, and without attention, let them be deemed such, by beloved brethren.

:2cents


Agreed!

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Maybe you misunderstood me, PreacherBen.

I was trying to say that it is possible for SAVED people to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
Timothy was a saved man. But Paul was warning Timothy to hold to sound doctrine. Why? Because, evidently Timothy was as susceptible as anybody else.

Please understand: Spurgeon may well be in Heaven right now, but if he did believe in Calvinism, he also had been decieved by "seducing spirits".;;Because calvinsm is wicked false doctrine and is therefore of the devil; same goes for the doctrine of "losing one's salvation"

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Maybe you misunderstood me, PreacherBen.

I was trying to say that it is possible for SAVED people to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
Timothy was a saved man. But Paul was warning Timothy to hold to sound doctrine. Why? Because, evidently Timothy was as susceptible as anybody else.

Please understand: Spurgeon may well be in Heaven right now, but if he did believe in Calvinism, he also had been decieved by "seducing spirits".;;Because calvinsm is wicked false doctrine and is therefore of the devil; same goes for the doctrine of "losing one's salvation"


:goodpost:

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