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2 Thessalonians 2:2-6?

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Is this referring to the second coming before the millenium?


Yes, thats what Paul was writing about as some said the 1st ress had already taken place. Even if you believe in a pretrib rapture you only have a 3-1/2 window from takeoff to the man of sin in the temple.

Randy

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2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

The "falling away" in verse 3 is the "apostasia". Those who "fall away" are not true believers From what do they fall away? They fall away from the faith in Christ which he or she has outwardly professed without inward reality. They will be the "professing" Christians who "receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved" in verse 10.

The son of perdition is the Antichrist who will be revealed in the "Day of Christ" which is the period of time from the beginning of the Tribulation to the Millennium. (7 years....the 70th week of Daniel: Daniel 9:24-27)

I am not looking for the Antichrist to be revealed...I am looking for the "blessed hope"...the "glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13) This is the Rapture of the Church. (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

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I believe Paul was stating what Jesus taught about the many false miracles that would deceive even the elect if that were possible. This rising of the anti christ or beast or false prophet is not by human power. The angel who is bound will be released and the world will follow him. (At least those that don't belong to Jesus)

Randy

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Yes, and if you take that one step further this man of sin is revealed to the world by declaring himself God in the temple of God.

Randy


Yes and NO. :puzzled: :lol

When the Ac first arrives on the scene, he appears to the world as being the "messiah", the "man of peace", making a treaty between Israel and her enemies, lying signs and wonders, gaining control with the help of evil spirits and "Flatteries",

The world will say "At last, peace and safety", for the first half of his reign, then he is killed, a deadly head wound, but to the world he is "Resurrected", like Jesus, but actually, he is "REINCARNATED" by the spirit from the bottomless pit, it is only given 42 months to reign, or the last half of the trib,

This is when he enter the temple and and Jews are told to flee Jerusalem because the "peace and safety" is over with, and "Great Tribulation" begins.

The AC "Mimic" Jesus in many different areas, even to riding a "White horse".

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:
(as being the Messiah)

if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
(as being the Messiah)

Satan is the "Father of a lie", and the "lie" they believe is Satan son being the messiah.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Jesus/church being a "mystery" to Israel, they're expecting the "Messiah" of the "second coming" of Jesus, when he will establish "PEACE", this is one of the ways they are "FOOLED".

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Actually, Revelation 13 and 17 teach that it is the empire/kingdom that receives a head wound - not an individual. That is just popular endtimes theology that doesn't line up with God's Word.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 17:9-11 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

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Furthermore' date=' there are many theories (which are not absolute truth, like the theory of evolution,) about "he that letteth" being the church, the holy spirit, etc. The fact of the matter is it is subjective to the opinions of the one interpreting it. [/quote']

Let's focus on this part.

Israel rejected God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them at Mt Sinai, preferring God speak to "Prophets" (Moses) then the prophets could tell Israel what God said.

And they did the same thing again when Jesus came, they wouldn't hear God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them through Jesus,

"BUT", the "law and "PROPHETS" stopped when Jesus came, one reason they are "Blind".

The "Comforter/Holy Ghost" is God/Jesus speaking "DIRECTLY" to a person and not through a "PROPHET", my sheep hear my voice.

Under the OT, Israel didn't have this "COMFORTER".

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

This "comforter" is "Greater than Satan", so "HE" must be taken out of the way, before the "Oppressor" (satan) can "Prevail".

This is the "Rapture".

Once the comforter is gone, the "Law and PROPHETS" will return, the "Two witnesses", Moses/Elijah, during the trib.

Here's the "key" to understanding this,

"LEADERSHIP" by both God and Law/Prophet, Jesus and Comforter/Holy Ghost, "DO NOT FUNCTION" at the same time, in the same time frame.

This is the reason the L/P stopped when Jesus came and won't return until he leaves. (rapture)

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree,(israel) my brethren, bear olive berries? (Christians) either a vine, (Jesus) figs? (Jews) so can no fountain (God) both yield salt water (doctrine) and fresh. (at the same time)

Jesus as the "VINE" doesn't bear figs, he writher up that tree, but the root is still holy.

Knowing you're going to be killed if you have the testimony of Christ, will make the "Doctrine of salvation" a little "SALTY" for trib saints to drink, but that's "Chastisement" for rejecting God/Jesus speaking directly to them.

and there are "NUMBEROUS REASONS" why the AC/Satan can't prevail as long as the "Comforter" is present in the world,

He couldn't so anything for Israel anyway, they won't listen to "HIM".

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Actually, Revelation 13 and 17 teach that it is the empire/kingdom that receives a head wound - not an individual. That is just popular endtimes theology that doesn't line up with God's Word.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 17:9-11 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


"HOW" is the AC going to convince people he is the Messiah "UNLESS" he Mimic Jesus???



Being killed then alive, is just one of many different ways he mimics Jesus.

I'm not on my computer or I'd post a few of them, but I have a copy of the Bible on this one.


AC
Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Jesus
Re 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

AC
Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;

Jesus.
Mt 27:35 And they crucified him,


AC
Re 13:3 and his deadly wound was healed:

Jesus
Ac 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive

The list is quite long.

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Regardless of your comparisons, Revelation chapter 17 states quite clearly what the heads in chapter 13 meant. They are seven kingdoms (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Revived Rome) - and it is one of those (obviously the seventh one) that receives a wound and comes back to life - not an individual. That tells us one of these empires will "die", but be revived again, causing the whole world to wonder.

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Regardless of your comparisons' date=' Revelation chapter 17 states quite clearly what the heads in chapter 13 meant. They are seven kingdoms (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Revived Rome) - and it is one of those (obviously the seventh one) that receives a wound and comes back to life - not an individual. That tells us one of these empires will "die", but be revived again, causing the whole world to wonder.[/quote']

The "ROMAN EMPIRE" is the "REVIVED EMPIRE", it's "Daniel's "FOURTH KINGDOM", which actually is the "SEVENTH KINGDOM" because Nebuchadnezzar dream began as the Third kingdom, four kingdom later is the seventh of the total.

1. Egypt
2. Assyrian
3. Nebuchadnezzar
4. Medo/Persian
5. Greek
6. Rome
7. Revived Roman
8. antichrist.

Re 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, (on earth) and is not; (now) and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:


Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Re 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.





Regardless of your comparisons,

I'd suggest a study of the "Son of perdition" (AC) before coming to any conclusions.

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Been there, done that. That phrase refers to two different individuals in Scripture (who have various things in common). Don't see how that relates to Revelation 13 and 17 though. The heads are kingdoms. Daniel states that Rome will continue till Christ returns (that means in God's eyes, pagan Rome and papal Rome are just one continuous empire). Pagan Rome lost its political power, but this last century has been gradually gaining it again - and most denominations are now running back to Rome. It died as an empire, but now has come back to life. The final seven year reign of the Antichrist will be the 8th empire, coming out of the seventh, the revived empire (not revived individual).

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read 7 and 8 of the same chapter

He cannot be revealed until the Spirit has been removed...with the Holy Spirit, we also go.


I am a Baptist to the core. I was saved and baptized in a Baptist Church, raised a Baptist, and taught the belief of a pre-trib rapture. I have studied it since 2003 and cannot find any Biblical support for the belief. Maybe someone can help me. I believe the Word of God to be God inspired and infallable. I take everything it says literally--maybe that is my problem. My children have been raised in IFB Churches their whole life, and I don't let them know about my doubts, allowing them to be taught as I was. IF the Baptist doctrinal belief that the rapture is "pre-trib" is incorrect, there will be many, many upset Christians.

One of my primary reasons for my doubt is Mark 13. Jesus Himself seems to indicate Christians will endure the tribulation. On top of that, I have travelled the world (being military), and the pre-trib belief is referred to by many foreign Christians as "American Doctrine."

Maybe someone can set me straight. :puzzled:

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My pastor teaches about the false messiahs and about the falling away from God. Before Jesus comes the Antichrist will be revealed, but not ruling yet. Saved people will know who it is. He will be revealed.

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My pastor teaches about the false messiahs and about the falling away from God. Before Jesus comes the Antichrist will be revealed' date=' but not ruling yet. Saved people will know who it is. He will be revealed.[/quote']

Matt. 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The rapture (gathering together) in this scripture is placed in the same time frame as the open second coming of Jesus. And this happens after the tribulation (verse 29: "Immediately after the tribulation.....).

All other scripture relating to the "gathering together" must refer back to the literal timeline provided by our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Any good Baptist will interpret scripture with scripture.

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The why of it is an extensive study requiring the comparison of many passages hambone, but essentially in the Mark 13:14-30 and Matthew 24:15-34 passages Christ is speaking to the Jewish nation and the 144,000 Jewish witnesses during the tribulation. In Mark 13:32-37 and Matthew 24:36-51 Christ is speaking to the Church.

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I just worry that millions of Christians are going to be shocked, and unable to deal with the fact that they will endure the tribulation (if I am correct). I know the big argument about the 'church' not being mentioned after Rev. 4, but it does mention the saints, the elect, and what about the fifth seal martyrs? The multitude in heaven that no man could number. If the saints are gone, where did these martyrs come from? The Revelation says they were beheaded for not rejecting Christ. Shouldn't they have been raptured?

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Hambone, after the rapture of the believers of the church age the tribulation starts and God starts working with Israel again. Daniels 70th week. During this time Israel will turn to the Lord very greatly and many of these post-church age believers will be killed during the tribulation.

As I said it is an extensive study. Here are a few passages to examine if you like.

Isaiah 4:2-6
Isaiah 35
Isaiah 51
Ezekiel 39
Zechariah 12-14
Hosea 14
Romans 11:26
Revelation 7
Revelation 14

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Hambone, after the rapture of the believers of the church age the tribulation starts and God starts working with Israel again. Daniels 70th week. During this time Israel will turn to the Lord very greatly and many of these post-church age believers will be killed during the tribulation.

As I said it is an extensive study. Here are a few passages to examine if you like.

Isaiah 4:2-6
Isaiah 35
Isaiah 51
Ezekiel 39
Zechariah 12-14
Hosea 14
Romans 11:26
Revelation 7
Revelation 14


Thank you for your patience. I have a question concerning Israel turning back to God. How? If the Holy Spirit is gone, how are the Israelis convicted? How are they saved? Who brings them the message of salvation? The only way of salvation is through Jesus Christ--who is preaching to the Israelis if the church is gone?

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I have a question concerning Israel turning back to God. How? If the Holy Spirit is gone, how are the Israelis convicted? How are they saved? Who brings them the message of salvation?


Three types of witnesses during that time. The two prophets-witnesses sent by God(Revelation 11:3), the 144,000 Jewish witnesses and this verse mentions the third which may be directing the other two.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

BTW the Holy Spirit isn't gone at this time, he is with the witnesses. Just the church age believers are gone.

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I have a slight problem with that. The fifth seal martyrs in Rev 6:9-11. If we are gone (the church) who witnessed to them? The 144,000 aren't around until after the sixth seal and chapter 7. Chapter 7 begins,"And after these things..." After what? The sixth seal. So, we can't take it out of order and say the 144,000 were there to fit (what I've been taught as pre-trib).

Also, where in the Bible does it say the 144,000 are witnesses or preachers? The KJV says servants--without explaining what their service is. I do notice the innumerable multitude is after the 144,000 are sealed. This still doesn't explain the 5th seal martyrs. Is it possible the fifth seal martyrs are us? Our children?

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1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

According to this scripture, the ressurection and rapture of the living take place at the same time.

Revelation 20:4-5:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If this is the "FIRST" ressurection, how is it possible there was a pre-tribulation rapture? The FIRST ressurection clearly takes place after the tribulation; and according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the rapture of those living takes place at the same time. To say different would be saying the Bible is fallable. I know it to be infallable.

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The why of it is an extensive study requiring the comparison of many passages hambone' date=' but essentially in the Mark 13:14-30 and Matthew 24:15-34 passages Christ is speaking to the Jewish nation and the 144,000 Jewish witnesses during the tribulation. In Mark 13:32-37 and Matthew 24:36-51 Christ is speaking to the Church.[/quote']

Jesus was talking to the disciples (Matt. 24:3), and it is true that they were Jews. Naturally, the gospel had not been given to the Gentiles yet, so most everything Jesus said was to Jews. Jesus lived in Israel. Whenever he spoke he usually was talking to Jews. If Jesus talking to Jews makes a passage inapplicable to us, then that would take out most of the gospels. In this instance, though, he was talking specifically to the disciples in private (v. 3). These men were the foundation of the church (Eph. 2:20). In my opinion they represent the church better than anyone. Furthermore, Jesus had already told Peter "Upon this rock I will build my church" in chapter 16 and given the disciples instructions for church discipline in chapter 18.

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1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

According to this scripture, the ressurection and rapture of the living take place at the same time.


These verses speak of meeting Christ in the air and are speaking of the rapture of the church and the resurrection of the dead believers up to that point.

Revelation 20:4-5:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If this is the "FIRST" ressurection, how is it possible there was a pre-tribulation rapture? The FIRST ressurection clearly takes place after the tribulation; and according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the rapture of those living takes place at the same time. To say different would be saying the Bible is fallable. I know it to be infallable.


It calls it the first resurrection because it is still part of the resurrection of the believers. This began with the resurrection of Christ and will end with the resurrection of the dead tribulation saints. That there are those who are already resurrected before the tribulation saints are in chapter 20 can be seen by these passages:

Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

So you see from these verses that when Christ comes to judge the earth in revelation 19 he brings his already resurrected and raptured saints with him, yet this "first" resurrection isn't mentioned till chapter twenty when Satan has already been cast into the pit and shut up for a thousand years. The reason for John mentioning this is because the very last people who will be raised in the "first resurrection" are raised in revelation chapter 20. These are the slain tribulation believers. Everyone who is raised after that point is lost.

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