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2 Thessalonians 2:2-6?

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Old Testament saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Can God NOT go back to pre-pentecost ways of working?

I re-ask my question: Where was the HS in pre-pentecost days? He DID NOT dwell in man. He occassionally came upon them.

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Old Testament saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Can God NOT go back to pre-pentecost ways of working?

I re-ask my question: Where was the HS in pre-pentecost days? He DID NOT dwell in man. He occassionally came upon them.


As I alluded to in my previous post, when the Holy Spirit of God saves someone He also indwells them, past, present and future whether it be O.T., N.T. Trib., Millenium, or whatever. Jesus promised to send the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) to the disciples after He was gone. We remember that the disciples were already saved, but this a new economy, and the Holy Spirit would fulfill a new office of empowering the believers. Consider the prophets of the O.T. economy of whom John the Baptist was the last one. We read in the Gospels how the Holy Spirit of God empowered him for the task he performed. However, now in the New Testament economy the Holy Spirit empowers all believers.

Hope this helps. :lol

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Old Testament saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Can God NOT go back to pre-pentecost ways of working?

I re-ask my question: Where was the HS in pre-pentecost days? He DID NOT dwell in man. He occassionally came upon them.


The Spirit is omnipresent, but He can also exercise a more intense, more vibrant, more sustaining presence locally. God is everywhere (Acts 17:28). The sending of the Spirit thus refers to the new empowerment of believers by the Spirit from Pentecost onward whereby we have the "indwelling" of the Spirit, a far more intense presence of the Spirit than most Old Testament believers experienced. And this presence can intensify too, for we know that some believers were noting for being "filled" with the Spirit (cf. Acts 6:5), and we are told to "be filled" with the Spirit (Eph.5:18). Also, the gender of the Spirit in 2nd Thessalonians 2:7, the Spirit is a "He" even is sometimes He is referred to as "it" (because wind and spirit are neuter in Greek). During the Tribulation "He moves out of the way" - not that He is still not present in the sense of His omnipresence, but He moves out of the way of the devil, the beast, and their followers and allows the events of the Tribulation to take place. Were He continuing His ministry of restraint, the Tribulation would be impossible - and that would make the second advent impossible too. So while we regret the removal of His influence during those dark days to come, like the pains of a woman in labor, we understand that the trouble has to come first if we are going to experience the new birth of resurrection when our Lord Jesus returns. Hope this helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline

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So are we going to be here when the anti-christ is revealed. It seems to be saying that.That is what is confusing me?


It means that the day of the Lord, (1st resurrection, 2nd coming) won't be before that event. The angel of the abyss is locked up thats what is holding these events back. The man of lawlessness doesn't rise or fall by human power. There are christians beheaded because they refuse the mark of the beast. Gods Holy Spirit doesn't have to go anywhere as the many false miracles produced will deceive the world, (non christians), into following the beast.

Randy

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The Spirit is omnipresent, but He can also exercise a more intense, more vibrant, more sustaining presence locally. God is everywhere (Acts 17:28). The sending of the Spirit thus refers to the new empowerment of believers by the Spirit from Pentecost onward whereby we have the "indwelling" of the Spirit, a far more intense presence of the Spirit than most Old Testament believers experienced. And this presence can intensify too, for we know that some believers were noting for being "filled" with the Spirit (cf. Acts 6:5), and we are told to "be filled" with the Spirit (Eph.5:18). Also, the gender of the Spirit in 2nd Thessalonians 2:7, the Spirit is a "He" even is sometimes He is referred to as "it" (because wind and spirit are neuter in Greek). During the Tribulation "He moves out of the way" - not that He is still not present in the sense of His omnipresence, but He moves out of the way of the devil, the beast, and their followers and allows the events of the Tribulation to take place. Were He continuing His ministry of restraint, the Tribulation would be impossible - and that would make the second advent impossible too. So while we regret the removal of His influence during those dark days to come, like the pains of a woman in labor, we understand that the trouble has to come first if we are going to experience the new birth of resurrection when our Lord Jesus returns. Hope this helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline


Does the Bible mean the Spirit came upon them or not in the Old Testament when it says the Spirit came upon them? In Acts 2, does the Bible say the Spirit filled them or not? It either says it came upon them or KJV is wrong there. It either says it filled them at Pentecost or KJV is wrong.

My point is not that the Spirit is NOT ominpresent. My point is that I believe that HE will be taken out of the way. That's the Spirit himself and us in whom He dwells. I don't think we are ever going to agree on this, but my take is that He will return to the work he did before Christ came upon the earth. I think the Trib saints bear the same marks of salvation that the OT saints bore which is not the same as ours.

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Does the Bible mean the Spirit came upon them or not in the Old Testament when it says the Spirit came upon them? In Acts 2, does the Bible say the Spirit filled them or not? It either says it came upon them or KJV is wrong there. It either says it filled them at Pentecost or KJV is wrong.

My point is not that the Spirit is NOT ominpresent. My point is that I believe that HE will be taken out of the way. That's the Spirit himself and us in whom He dwells. I don't think we are ever going to agree on this, but my take is that He will return to the work he did before Christ came upon the earth. I think the Trib saints bear the same marks of salvation that the OT saints bore which is not the same as ours.


Oh.

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:wave:

So then, He (the Holy Spirit) is still here on earth but just pulled back from withholding Satan from doing his nefarious deeds.


Do you agree with that statement, Jen? That's exactly my point. Btw, it's a miracle how I actually agree with him. :tum



Does the Bible mean the Spirit came upon them or not in the Old Testament when it says the Spirit came upon them? In Acts 2, does the Bible say the Spirit filled them or not? It either says it came upon them or KJV is wrong there. It either says it filled them at Pentecost or KJV is wrong.

My point is not that the Spirit is NOT ominpresent. My point is that I believe that HE will be taken out of the way. That's the Spirit himself and us in whom He dwells. I don't think we are ever going to agree on this, but my take is that He will return to the work he did before Christ came upon the earth. I think the Trib saints bear the same marks of salvation that the OT saints bore which is not the same as ours.


Can you define taken out of the way for me? :smile If your definition is the complete removal of the HS from the earth, then you will have presented a clear contradiction concerning the Omnipresence of the HS. Seems as if you've been dodging this issue in nearly every one of your posts. Now if you define taken out of the way as in the HS's ministry being absent from the earth and His restraint of wickedness, then you have just proven what I have been trying to prove to you in each of my posts. Perhaps there's something that you don't understand about how an Omnipresent spirit can still be present on earth whilst being taken away? I'm not sure...You seem to imply in your posts that the HS is completely taken out of the earth during the Tribulation. Whether the Trib saints bear the same marks of salvation that the OT saints bore is not the issue here. The issue as I stated several times on this thread is that the HS cannot be completely removed from the earth due to His Omnipresence. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent, but what is referenced in 2 Thess is not His presence in the world, but a particular ministry in the world, the restraint of wickedness. If the HS is omnipresent, then He cannot be completely removed from the earth. The HS will be removed in the sense of His indwelling presence in the lives of born-again Christians. Godly Christians restrain wickedness in our world, but their rapture will remove that influence during the Millennium. All you have shown me in essence is how the HS comes, goes, and can fill believers. Not all believers are "filled" with the HS, but all believers are "indwelled" with the HS. This alone should prove that the HS can be taken out of the way while still remaining on the earth. I will defend the Word of God for as long as I live, and I will not submit to anyone who teaches contrary to biblical truth. Hope this helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline

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I have NOT been dodging it. I have been explaining that I think He goes back to working the way He did pre-pentecost. It isn't that He isn't around. It's that He is not indwelling anymore.

How much more clear can I get than that? He isn't directly working anymore. Satan has been given free course which cannot happen as long as the Spirit is still working in post-pentecost ways.

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I have NOT been dodging it. I have been explaining that I think He goes back to working the way He did pre-pentecost. It isn't that He isn't around. It's that He is not indwelling anymore.

How much more clear can I get than that? He isn't directly working anymore. Satan has been given free course which cannot happen as long as the Spirit is still working in post-pentecost ways.


Hmmm......Isn't that what I have been trying to prove all along? How much clearer can you get? I was thinking the same. Btw, I think you're getting too heated over this discussion (kinda disappointed :sad), so I'll stop here with a little clarification. I use a bajillion words sometimes for clarification because some people just can't seem to get my point even after I repeat myself over and over again. Now firstly, I understand about the HS's role of coming upon them in the OT. This indicates an external ministry to Moses, Joshua, the judges, and other leaders of Israel to give them special abilities to lead God's people.The Spirit's ministry in the OT was not internal (indwelling) like we experience today.The verbs used of the His ministry to the judges indicate this external ministry. The Spirit of the LORD "came mightily upon" him (Samson), for example. In Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost the Spirit initiated a new ministry of indwelling. He did fill those believers at Pentecost, does so for believers today, and will continue to do so until the rapture. This change in His ministry is predicted by Christ in John 14:17, "but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you".

The indwelling work of the Spirit is what distinguishes the NT local church in this age. Because the church is raptured prior to the tribulation, people indwelt by the HS will be absent during that seven-year period - and so will the restraining work of the Spirit through their lives. I'm not sure I would say that there is a return to the OT ministry of the Spirit, however. There is a principle of progression through the dispensations; a return of the Spirit to a former ministry seems to me to violate that principle. Believers in the tribulation will be marked by their witness and their willingness to pay with their lives for their faith. The tribulation is a transitional period from the church age to the millennial reign of Christ.Transitions are difficult to objectively nail down. On the specifics of the Spirit's work during the tribulation, I am going to have to claim Deut. 29:29. I Hope I made myself clear on my stand concerning this discussion. I am late for church...hope this helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline

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Hmmm......Isn't that what I have been trying to prove all along? How much clearer can you get? I was thinking the same. Btw, I think you're getting too heated over this discussion (kinda disappointed ),


Madeline, isn't that what I was trying to say all along? We are on different wave lengths, that's all. You don't have to PROVE anything to me. Stop being disappointed in me.

But to keep intimating that I don't understand something that I do understand gets frustrating. I have understood omnipotence...old.gif since before you were born, missy! (That is, as much as anyone can understand the concept.)

Also, I explained in my PM to you (clears throat) the reasoning behind the frustration. Stop being disappointed in me. For you to be disappointed does neither of us any good. I am not a god, nor am I in the place of God. I am a mom at home with my children trying to raise them to be God-fearing holy consecrated individuals. Niether of us is perfect, and I don't hope to reach that plain until I have stepped on heaven's shores. Only then will I have complete understanding. Only then will I be free from this body of sin.

(I took this to pm because we had totally hijacked the original thread.)

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But to those who do insist that the HS is completely removed from the earth during the Tribulation - the answer here is precisely along the lines I addressed before. There are many times in scripture where two things are true that to human logic are not reconcilable. Jesus is God - and Jesus is a true human being. How can they both be true (since, among other things, God is by definition omnipresent and man is by nature limited in terms of time and space)? They are both true, and through careful study and exegesis of the scriptures this particular question can be answered (although of course it was the cause of much controversy in the history of the Church, and even today there are many heresies which are based upon a misunderstanding or deliberate perversion of the truth of this "double truth"). There are many such examples. Whenever one is trying to understand or explain a point of scripture or a point of doctrine, it is always dangerous to argue, "in my human logic, something has to be either A or B; so if this is A, it can't be B, or if it's B, it can't be A" (since theology is not limited to what is true in the time and space material world with which we are so conversant, in scripture and in doctrine sometimes we have situations where both A and B are true). For example, the Spirit is sent both the Son and by the Father and therefore the scripture can at one time emphasize the one and at another time the other (failure to understand this particular truth, the procession of the Spirit, was the stated reason for the break between the Roman catholic and Greek orthodox churches). For example, it is also true that God has ordained all we do and elected to eternal life all believers, and yet we have true free will and everything we do and decide is thus very important because without deciding to believe in Jesus and maintaining that faith true to the end we cannot be saved. Those who only want to accept the former truth are hyper-Calvinists; those who only want to accept the latter are hyper-Arminianists - but both principles are true.

It is the same with the removal of the restraining ministry of the Spirit. For example, we know that God fills the universe; that the Father is everywhere since "in him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28) - and yet in Revelation 21:3 we find the Father "coming" to earth to make His dwelling with mankind in a very localized way (the Father's advent/return). To us this is illogical, but not to God. God is omnipresent, but He is also free to be locally present or not in certain ways with varying intensities and for various purposes. The Spirit is omnipresent, but we believers after Pentecost have the Spirit in us. Furthermore, this local presence of the Spirit can be more or less intense. For if we don't have the Spirit in us, then we do not belong to Jesus Christ (Rom.8:10) - and yet we are told to be "filled with the Spirit" (Eph.5:18), a phrase which clearly teaches that a more intense, more potent presence of the Spirit is possible (through drawing closer to God in Jesus Christ by means of the truth of the Word).

The removal of the Spirit's restraining ministry is just such a case. He is here; has always been here; will always be here - but He ceases His activity of exceptional Church Age restraint during the Tribulation (without which removal, the Tribulation could not take place). Just as our Lord rebuked Peter who could not imagine that anything like the suffering of the cross could or would happen to Jesus, so we have to accept now that the Tribulation for all of its horrors is a necessary part of the plan of God. Therefore the Spirit must be "taken out of the way" - but that has nothing to do with the fact that He is God and will still be here (indeed, without His continued help, how would any believers survive until the second advent?). God is by definition omnipresent, so that the Spirit as God is so as well.

Love,
Madeline

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For example' date=' it is also true that God has ordained all we do and elected to eternal life all believers, and yet we have true free will and everything we do and decide is thus very important because without deciding to believe in Jesus and maintaining that faith true to the end we cannot be saved.[/quote']

This isn't Scriptural. The Bible does not teach that God ordains all we do - He does work all things together for our good, but it does not teach He ordains what we do (though He does have a plan for our lives). Also, the Bible does not teach if we maintain our faith to the end THEN we will be saved. We are saved the moment we place our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - and the truth believer will keep that faith to the end, not to BE saved but because they ARE saved.

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Jerry, are you familiar with salvation in the past, present, and future tense? Salvation is also future tense in the sense that Christians "will be" saved from the body of sin or the redemption of the body (cf. Rom. 5:9,10; 8:24; 13:11; 1 Cor.5:5; Eph.1:13,14; 1 Thess.5:8; Heb.10:36; 1 Pet.1.5; 1 John 3:2, 3). The other aspect of Salvation is the a true believer WILL maintain their faith until the end (Jn. 10:28,29; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 Cor. 1:4-9; Eph. 1:13-14; 1 Pet. 1:5; Jude 1:24, etc..). As to your objection on ordination...that's another can o worm that I am not going to open. Btw, this is off-topic, so if you want to wrangle with this subject then either take it to biblical issues or the salvation forum.

Love,
Madeline

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The other aspect of Salvation is the a true believer WILL maintain their faith until the end (Jn. 10:28' date='29; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 Cor. 1:4-9; Eph. 1:13-14; 1 Pet. 1:5; Jude 1:24, etc..).[/quote']

That isn't right. It's the LORD, Himself in the Person of the Holy Spirit that maintains a true believer's faith. He is the One that keeps us, not we, ourselves. I.E. We don't do this keeping, it is all of Him and His Work alone. We have our work to do and that is to allow Him, the Holy Spirit, to work thru us with His very own Grace, Mercy, Peace, Ultra-Lovingkindness and Longsuffering.

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Me thinks that most here rush into their responses...I NEVER once said that we keep our salvation :puzzled: Did you examine the passages I cited in my previous post? 1 Peter 1:5 in particular? A true believer WILL maintain her/his salvation because the HS abides within them. I have posted innumerable times on this site on how it is the "power of God" in us that keeps us.

1 Peter 1:5 - Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Love,
Madeline

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without deciding to believe in Jesus and maintaining that faith true to the end we cannot be saved...

I NEVER once said that we keep our salvation


You are either very poorly explaining yourself or you are contradicting yourself.

The believer doesn't keep or maintain his faith to the end to be saved - the true believer IS saved, and therefore God will keep Him in His power, resulting in that believer (who is already saved) keeping the faith to the end.

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You are either very poorly explaining yourself or you are contradicting yourself.

The believer doesn't keep or maintain his faith to the end to be saved - the true believer IS saved, and therefore God will keep Him in His power, resulting in that believer (who is already saved) keeping the faith to the end.


Once again...it is the HS that does the keeping. How much clearer can I get? If you have trouble with my grammar, then you should have known by now that my grammar stinks. But in any case...it is God who keeps us from falling. Now, the word "salvation" is used in different ways in the Bible; it speaks of justification, which occurs at the point of repentant faith (not at the point of saying a prayer), of progressive sanctification (the process of being saved from sin's power), of glorification (the final redemption of the body at the resurrection, which is yet future), of physical deliverance from sickness, etc. We cannot assume every time we see the word "salvation" that it refers to justification. The believer has been saved from sin's penalty, is being saved from sin's power, and will be saved from sin's presence. In Romans 10:10 it refers to ultimate salvation, that is, to glorification, not to justification. In the sense of Romans 10:10, no believer alive is yet saved; he is not in heaven yet. Notice the distinction in Romans 10- with the heart one believes unto righteousness (justification at the point of faith), and with the mouth confession is made unto [ultimate] salvation, that is, entrance into God's everlasting kingdom. In Romans 10:13, which is quoted in Joel 2, the word "salvation" refers to entrance into the millenial kingdom. In the sense of that verse, the salvation of believers (who all evidence the fruits of conversion in a holy life) is certain in the future, but nobody is yet saved who is still alive. I'm at work, so more later...

Love,
Madeline

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The believer has been saved from sin's penalty, is being saved from sin's power, and will be saved from sin's presence. In Romans 10:10 it refers to ultimate salvation, that is, to glorification, not to justification. In the sense of Romans 10:10, no believer alive is yet saved; he is not in heaven yet.


You are confusing the issue with your terminology. Better to state that no believer has experienced that ASPECT of salvation yet, rather than stating he is not saved yet. There is only ONE salvation - but I agree with your first sentence: there are aspects of it that we have not experienced yet, and will not until Heaven.

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Does the Bible mean the Spirit came upon them or not in the Old Testament when it says the Spirit came upon them? In Acts 2, does the Bible say the Spirit filled them or not? It either says it came upon them or KJV is wrong there. It either says it filled them at Pentecost or KJV is wrong.

My point is not that the Spirit is NOT ominpresent. My point is that I believe that HE will be taken out of the way. That's the Spirit himself and us in whom He dwells. I don't think we are ever going to agree on this, but my take is that He will return to the work he did before Christ came upon the earth. I think the Trib saints bear the same marks of salvation that the OT saints bore which is not the same as ours.


Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Notice that "POWER" was on the side of the "OPPRESSOR", (SATAN) because they had no "Comforter".

The Comforter is the "VOICE OF JESUS", the "Holy "GHOST OF JESUS"

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

God stopped speaking and Jesus started,

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 (God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice,

With the presents of the comforter, notice which side has the "POWER".

1Jo 4:4 because greater is he that is in you, than he (satan) that is in the world.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you,

The "Comforter" is...."unique" to the "Body of Christ", or "Church".

OT saints didn't have a comforter and neither will the "Saints" in the tribulation, the reason "POWER" will be on the side of the "oppressor" to make war and overcome them.

This "Comforter" is the "HE" who taken out of the way before the "wicked" is revealed, else Satan could not prevail over the trib saints.

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

when Jesus stops speaking (rapture), God will start again.

Notice that the comforter will always be "WITH US", and when "HE" can't be "WITH US", we will be WITH HIM".

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Mt 22:44 The LORD (God) said unto my Lord, (Jesus) Sit thou on my right hand, till I (God) make thine (Jesus's) enemies thy footstool?

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, (right hand) there ye may be also.

The "TRINITY" explains the scriptures, and is as easy to understand as the differences between the OT and NT.

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All of Scripture contains the mind of Christ, not just the Scriptures written during or about the church age.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

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Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:3

It is clear in the text that the coming of the Lord will be predicated by a falling away AND the man of sin being revealed. Furthermore, there are many theories (which are not absolute truth, like the theory of evolution,) about "he that letteth" being the church, the holy spirit, etc. The fact of the matter is it is subjective to the opinions of the one interpreting it. So, we must make the decision of how we live our life on the clear things. There will be a falling away, and the man of sin will be revealed before Christ returns, therefore, be not deceived.

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Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come' date=' [u']except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:3

It is clear in the text that the coming of the Lord will be predicated by a falling away AND the man of sin being revealed. Furthermore, there are many theories (which are not absolute truth, like the theory of evolution,) about "he that letteth" being the church, the holy spirit, etc. The fact of the matter is it is subjective to the opinions of the one interpreting it. So, we must make the decision of how we live our life on the clear things. There will be a falling away, and the man of sin will be revealed before Christ returns, therefore, be not deceived.


Yes, and if you take that one step further this man of sin is revealed to the world by declaring himself God in the temple of God.

Randy

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