2 Thessalonians 2:2-6?

[Jerry]

The believer has been saved from sin's penalty, is being saved from sin's power, and will be saved from sin's presence. In Romans 10:10 it refers to ultimate salvation, that is, to glorification, not to justification. In the sense of Romans 10:10, no believer alive is yet saved; he is not in heaven yet.

You are confusing the issue with your terminology. Better to state that no believer has experienced that ASPECT of salvation yet, rather than stating he is not saved yet. There is only ONE salvation - but I agree with your first sentence: there are aspects of it that we have not experienced yet, and will not until Heaven.

[Me4Him]

Does the Bible mean the Spirit came upon them or not in the Old Testament when it says the Spirit came upon them? In Acts 2, does the Bible say the Spirit filled them or not? It either says it came upon them or KJV is wrong there. It either says it filled them at Pentecost or KJV is wrong.

My point is not that the Spirit is NOT ominpresent. My point is that I believe that HE will be taken out of the way. That's the Spirit himself and us in whom He dwells. I don't think we are ever going to agree on this, but my take is that He will return to the work he did before Christ came upon the earth. I think the Trib saints bear the same marks of salvation that the OT saints bore which is not the same as ours.

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Notice that "POWER" was on the side of the "OPPRESSOR", (SATAN) because they had no "Comforter".

The Comforter is the "VOICE OF JESUS", the "Holy "GHOST OF JESUS"

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

God stopped speaking and Jesus started,

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 (God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice,

With the presents of the comforter, notice which side has the "POWER".

1Jo 4:4 because greater is he that is in you, than he (satan) that is in the world.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you,

The "Comforter" is...."unique" to the "Body of Christ", or "Church".

OT saints didn't have a comforter and neither will the "Saints" in the tribulation, the reason "POWER" will be on the side of the "oppressor" to make war and overcome them.

This "Comforter" is the "HE" who taken out of the way before the "wicked" is revealed, else Satan could not prevail over the trib saints.

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

when Jesus stops speaking (rapture), God will start again.

Notice that the comforter will always be "WITH US", and when "HE" can't be "WITH US", we will be WITH HIM".

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Mt 22:44 The LORD (God) said unto my Lord, (Jesus) Sit thou on my right hand, till I (God) make thine (Jesus's) enemies thy footstool?

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, (right hand) there ye may be also.

The "TRINITY" explains the scriptures, and is as easy to understand as the differences between the OT and NT.

[Jerry]

All of Scripture contains the mind of Christ, not just the Scriptures written during or about the church age.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

[PreacherBen]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:3

It is clear in the text that the coming of the Lord will be predicated by a falling away AND the man of sin being revealed. Furthermore, there are many theories (which are not absolute truth, like the theory of evolution,) about "he that letteth" being the church, the holy spirit, etc. The fact of the matter is it is subjective to the opinions of the one interpreting it. So, we must make the decision of how we live our life on the clear things. There will be a falling away, and the man of sin will be revealed before Christ returns, therefore, be not deceived.

[RandyW]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come' date=' [u']except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:3

It is clear in the text that the coming of the Lord will be predicated by a falling away AND the man of sin being revealed. Furthermore, there are many theories (which are not absolute truth, like the theory of evolution,) about "he that letteth" being the church, the holy spirit, etc. The fact of the matter is it is subjective to the opinions of the one interpreting it. So, we must make the decision of how we live our life on the clear things. There will be a falling away, and the man of sin will be revealed before Christ returns, therefore, be not deceived.

Yes, and if you take that one step further this man of sin is revealed to the world by declaring himself God in the temple of God.

Randy

[PreacherBen]

That's pretty scarey, Bro. Randy. How many professors will be deceived by him!

[lettheredeemedsayso]

Is this referring to the second coming before the millenium?

[PreacherBen]

Yes.

[RandyW]

Is this referring to the second coming before the millenium?

Yes, thats what Paul was writing about as some said the 1st ress had already taken place. Even if you believe in a pretrib rapture you only have a 3-1/2 window from takeoff to the man of sin in the temple.

Randy

[LindaR]

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

The "falling away" in verse 3 is the "apostasia". Those who "fall away" are not true believers From what do they fall away? They fall away from the faith in Christ which he or she has outwardly professed without inward reality. They will be the "professing" Christians who "receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved" in verse 10.

The son of perdition is the Antichrist who will be revealed in the "Day of Christ" which is the period of time from the beginning of the Tribulation to the Millennium. (7 years....the 70th week of Daniel: Daniel 9:24-27)

I am not looking for the Antichrist to be revealed...I am looking for the "blessed hope"...the "glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13) This is the Rapture of the Church. (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

[RandyW]

I believe Paul was stating what Jesus taught about the many false miracles that would deceive even the elect if that were possible. This rising of the anti christ or beast or false prophet is not by human power. The angel who is bound will be released and the world will follow him. (At least those that don't belong to Jesus)

Randy

[Me4Him]

Yes, and if you take that one step further this man of sin is revealed to the world by declaring himself God in the temple of God.

Randy

Yes and NO. :puzzled: :lol

When the Ac first arrives on the scene, he appears to the world as being the "messiah", the "man of peace", making a treaty between Israel and her enemies, lying signs and wonders, gaining control with the help of evil spirits and "Flatteries",

The world will say "At last, peace and safety", for the first half of his reign, then he is killed, a deadly head wound, but to the world he is "Resurrected", like Jesus, but actually, he is "REINCARNATED" by the spirit from the bottomless pit, it is only given 42 months to reign, or the last half of the trib,

This is when he enter the temple and and Jews are told to flee Jerusalem because the "peace and safety" is over with, and "Great Tribulation" begins.

The AC "Mimic" Jesus in many different areas, even to riding a "White horse".

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:
(as being the Messiah)

if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
(as being the Messiah)

Satan is the "Father of a lie", and the "lie" they believe is Satan son being the messiah.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Jesus/church being a "mystery" to Israel, they're expecting the "Messiah" of the "second coming" of Jesus, when he will establish "PEACE", this is one of the ways they are "FOOLED".

[Jerry]

Actually, Revelation 13 and 17 teach that it is the empire/kingdom that receives a head wound - not an individual. That is just popular endtimes theology that doesn't line up with God's Word.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 17:9-11 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

[Me4Him]

Furthermore' date=' there are many theories (which are not absolute truth, like the theory of evolution,) about "he that letteth" being the church, the holy spirit, etc. The fact of the matter is it is subjective to the opinions of the one interpreting it. [/quote']

Let's focus on this part.

Israel rejected God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them at Mt Sinai, preferring God speak to "Prophets" (Moses) then the prophets could tell Israel what God said.

And they did the same thing again when Jesus came, they wouldn't hear God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them through Jesus,

"BUT", the "law and "PROPHETS" stopped when Jesus came, one reason they are "Blind".

The "Comforter/Holy Ghost" is God/Jesus speaking "DIRECTLY" to a person and not through a "PROPHET", my sheep hear my voice.

Under the OT, Israel didn't have this "COMFORTER".

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

This "comforter" is "Greater than Satan", so "HE" must be taken out of the way, before the "Oppressor" (satan) can "Prevail".

This is the "Rapture".

Once the comforter is gone, the "Law and PROPHETS" will return, the "Two witnesses", Moses/Elijah, during the trib.

Here's the "key" to understanding this,

"LEADERSHIP" by both God and Law/Prophet, Jesus and Comforter/Holy Ghost, "DO NOT FUNCTION" at the same time, in the same time frame.

This is the reason the L/P stopped when Jesus came and won't return until he leaves. (rapture)

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree,(israel) my brethren, bear olive berries? (Christians) either a vine, (Jesus) figs? (Jews) so can no fountain (God) both yield salt water (doctrine) and fresh. (at the same time)

Jesus as the "VINE" doesn't bear figs, he writher up that tree, but the root is still holy.

Knowing you're going to be killed if you have the testimony of Christ, will make the "Doctrine of salvation" a little "SALTY" for trib saints to drink, but that's "Chastisement" for rejecting God/Jesus speaking directly to them.

and there are "NUMBEROUS REASONS" why the AC/Satan can't prevail as long as the "Comforter" is present in the world,

He couldn't so anything for Israel anyway, they won't listen to "HIM".

[Me4Him]

Actually, Revelation 13 and 17 teach that it is the empire/kingdom that receives a head wound - not an individual. That is just popular endtimes theology that doesn't line up with God's Word.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 17:9-11 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

"HOW" is the AC going to convince people he is the Messiah "UNLESS" he Mimic Jesus???



Being killed then alive, is just one of many different ways he mimics Jesus.

I'm not on my computer or I'd post a few of them, but I have a copy of the Bible on this one.


AC
Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Jesus
Re 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

AC
Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;

Jesus.
Mt 27:35 And they crucified him,


AC
Re 13:3 and his deadly wound was healed:

Jesus
Ac 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive

The list is quite long.