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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

Revelation 12, past or future?

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  • Advanced Member

READ THIS:I am not dogmatic about this. A person can have a walk with God, go soul winning, live a christian life, without every studying Revelation. I don't insist that I'm right, I don't think I'm wrong, I don't care either way. IF YOU SEE a biblical problem with this, please point it out. IF you see a hole in logic, point it out. Please don't just attack me because your opinion is different, or because you where taught otherwise. I'm not saying works salvation here, it's not a dogmatic issue. I only say this because I don't want 200 posts of calling me a doodie head.

This is a long post, because this is the result of a bible study. If you're not interested in deep studies on the topic, by all means skip it. I tried my best to back everything up with bible, not opinion, please do the same if you disagree.


Is Revelation chapter 12 past present or future?

It is said that the devil's greatest trick, was to make men think he doesn't exist.
I say his next best trick, is to fool the church who knows he exists, that he's not here all the time

Chapter 12 of revelation is preceded by the ending of chapter 11:
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is what John sees through chapter 12, this opening of the ark of his testament. There are 3 opening in the book of revelation:
Revelation 4:1

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I do not have the time to refute your whole post - and frankly, I disagree with most of it, therefore it would take a lot to refute. But here is one point which will affect some interpretation of Revelation chapter 12:

Genesis 37:9-10 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Revelation 12:1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The woman is Israel - the twelve stars represent the twelve tribes according to Joseph's dream. We are to rightly divide the Word of truth by comparing Scripture with Scripture - and Genesis 37 is the only other place in the Word of God where we will see the symbolism in Revelation 12:1 used.

The 1260 days refer to 3 1/2 years (42 months times 30 days each) - this is also equivalent to the term time, times, and half a time used in the book of Revelation. These all refer to one half of the seven year Tribulation period - split in half by the abomination of desolation where the Antichrist desecrates the temple and sets himself up as God, gets indwelt by Satan, then goes on a rampage killing Jews and Christians worldwide.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

As this period of 3 1/2 years is half of the tribulation period - it obviously refers to the future, not the past. Yes, the first few verses in the chapter refer to the past - ie. Israel having a child (Jesus, the Messiah) who was then caught up to Heaven (His ascension). But as the chapter bears out, the war happens after this point in time, THEN immediately after he goes after the women (Israel) and attempts to wipe her out.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These time periods refer to either the first half or the second half of the tribulation period - therefore they are not past events, but still future.

Notice the connection to the following verses:

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:12-17 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Immediately after being cast out he went on his rampage and sought to wipe out the woman for 3 1/2 years. If that referred to the past, then this 3 1/2 year period was also past - in fact, it would have happened before John even penned this book - which would have been pointless to give us the prophecy of these events then.

P.S. The remnant of her seed is the remnant of Israel - those believing Jews who get saved during the Tribulation - those will be the ones protected if they flee to the place prepared for her. All other true believers will face possible martyrdom by beheading through the activity of the false prophet when the mark of the beast is introduced.

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I've seen these arguments, mostly in Dr.Penticost's books, and I'm very familiar with them. I will wait for you to finish your rebut, instead of answering these, and the argument becomes only about these points. I mainly take this stance to see what you'll say about the other points, but also so I can take any problems you see and answer them one by one.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I am finished. If we can't agree that the 1260 days refers to the tribulation period, then we won't get too far in this thread. You say it is past, I believe it is still future - not much common ground there.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

:amen: Jerry.

QG,

After Rev. 3 is past then everything else in Revelation is future. I.E. Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture, which is still future for us.

No, you cannot ignore or disregard Revelation and expect to be a good and true Bible student, or a good soul-winner, or a good Christian, or a good anything else.

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That's a good point, PE. Chapter one gives John an explanation of the book of Revelation:

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

the things which thou hast seen - ie. the risen Christ.

the things which are - the seven churches (ie. the church age).

the things which shall be hereafter - the events of the tribulation as covered in the remainder of the book.

We are still in the church age, so there is no way the events of the rest of the book have happened yet. Look at this verse:

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

After the church age, then the rapture (being caught up to Heaven), then the tribulation unfolds.

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No' date=' you cannot ignore or disregard Revelation and expect to be a good and true Bible student, or a good soul-winner, or a good Christian, or a good anything else.[/quote']

I don't need a retraction on this, I just need to point out that you need to be watchful of what you post. First, I don't ignore nor disregard Revelation, this post was started ABOUT revelation. Second, soul winning is to bring people to accept the salvation offered by the sacrifice of Jesus for the sin of man, and this can be done without the book of revelation if needed; to say I am wrong about something in revelation makes me a not a good soul winner, is to say because I don't conform to either a populous view, or your view, I am some how not a good Christian. Third.. not a good anything else; this is, at it's very foundation, it's walls, and it's ceiling; insulting, low brow, ignorant comment that you need to think upon your saying of it. You are making a blanket comment that I fail at my service to God, my service to my earthly employer, my service to family, to friends, to strangers, all because I dare to question points about a chapter of Revelation.
Advice to you:
Proverbs 17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
Reason I don't accept the "status quo" without personal study:
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Why I would use a IFB forum to do the above:
Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

ok.. now, I wouldn't be so bold as to point all that out so harshly, except that I made it clear in the very start of the post what I expected. Now lets move on:

Jerry.. First, thank you very much for the time put into this, you've obviously read my post to fruition, disagree, and would like to point out errors you see, which is what I had requested.

Lets address the 1260 days as you have pointed out. Now, I cannot afford the time right now to go into detail, so I shall submit my plans, because you may have knowledge I do not know that you can save easily give answers to these:
1) How long were Mary, Joseph, Jesus in Egypt after the birth, to flee from Herod. Could this be 3.5 years? Secular dating puts the death of Herod 2 years before the birth of Jesus, which could not be because it was the original Herod they fled from. I trust the bible, not secular dating on this one, so I need to research more, if possible, how long they where in Egypt. I take into account the sons of Herod, who are also known as "Herod".
2) A double meaning on the time-line, like many things in the bible. A time in the past mimics a time in the future. I can give examples if you wish, but I don't think I need too with you.
3) I put Revelation Chapter 12 at the time of the birth/life of Christ. This would fit with your quote of revelation 1:19
4) I have made a strong case for the tie between chapter 12, and the last verse of chapter 11. I have not said the woman is not Israel, I have made it a point to clarify that for my argument, who the woman is does not matter. God being just, and thorough, my argument is that chapter 12 of revelation in whole or in part shows the spiritual background to what was happening at the time of Jesus, to give that understanding to man. On the surface, this is apparent to any layman, but you refute it with "this is that and that is this" meanings in deep biblical study. This is the argument, that God's word is hard to understand, that the common man is below the word of God, and that only special people are gifted with this knowledge. Showing a flash back, a right of action, a reason for authority, would not be against God's character. I have given simple arguments for, and you have refuted it with complicated arguments against. I believe that God gave us His word so that all could understand, so if something is not literally apparent, please give your scriptural backing.

(Note: You did this greatly with the genesis/revelation link to show that the woman is Israel, good form! Second, I'm not trying to be insulting or dismiss what you're saying, I just would like the greatest of care put into all things said.)
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God wants His people to understand His Word - but He does not want them to do so without time and effort put into studying and meditating upon it. In the book of Revelation is much symbolism - comparing the symbols used in Revelation with the rest of the Bible will give us the true meaning of each symbol.

As far as possibly Mary and Joseph fleeing to Egypt - that doesn't fit. The woman fled to the wilderness AFTER the child is caught up to Heaven (ascended).

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Yes, obvious point that I if I wasn't posting at 1am, I would of never brought up lol. Sorry about that.

We could examine though, the persecution of early Christians by the synagogues, Romans, and others, as well as the persecution of the Jews because of the revolt against Rome not too long after Christ. I' m pretty sure those that none of these would fit the time line without some serious manipulation and not literal examination.

The problem that arises though, is we have this woman in revelation 12 giving birth to the Christ child, and after Christ goes to Heaven, a war breaks out. Losing the war, Satan goes after the woman, but she is protected. Between the casting down of Satan, and the hiding of the woman, we have verse 10, declaring that salvation has come. The time that salvation came to earth, was when Jesus paid the price. This would put the war in heaven in the past at the very least.

You've said that verse 1-3 is past (I think it was you)
If verse 5 though is future, then Jesus will be making a third coming at the end of the tribulation, with a second coming via birth in the middle of the tribulation.

Now, you can also look at it as a replay, that the thousand two hundred and threescore days is the exact same as the time, times, and half a time. If the war in heaven by earth's view happened instantly, over at the same time it started (time was invented by God, we have no way of knowing if time in Heaven passes like time on earth)

How it would read, is that God sends the woman into the wilderness for 3.5 years, and then it talks of the war in Heaven. The war is won and Satan is cast down. Satan, angry over this goes after the woman, which is why God sent her to the wilderness for 3.5 years. It can very easily be seen as a linear story with flash backs for causes of effects.

We can touch on some of these explanations later, I put them out mainly so you can mull them a bit. My main question for you is, at what point does Rev 12 go from past, to future, in your opinion. It can't all be future, so where do you draw the line, and why?

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Just so you guys don't get bored in an almost solo conversation there are those that posit the woman is the church. The 1260 are the years she spent in the wilderness - Catholic Church becomes formal in the 300's, 1260 years later the church quits "dwelling in the wilderness" and comes out in the "protestant" reformation. Not positing an opinion, just giving info on another view. I myself will state I have no "firm" opinion as I am still researchng the subject - which is why I am reading and commenting now.

Wayne

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The child referred to in Rev. 12 has confused me - it says, Rev. 12.5, "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule over all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and to His Throne." I thought at first this was about the one world ruler, until the rest of the verse, about the child being caught up unto God. Still a little unclear, lol, but I can see where the Child could be Jesus.

I've been watching for the one world ruler, though - not too hard I hope, lol!

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
The child referred to in Rev. 12 has confused me - it says, Rev. 12.5, "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule over all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and to His Throne." I thought at first this was about the one world ruler, until the rest of the verse, about the child being caught up unto God. Still a little unclear, lol, but I can see where the Child could be Jesus.

I've been watching for the one world ruler, though - not too hard I hope, lol!


Based on the description used there, it is referring to Jesus Christ:

1) Born of the woman mentioned at the start of the chapter - Genesis 37 is a parallel passage showing the woman is Israel.

2) Jesus is her child - the child that is to rule all nations. See Psalm 2.

3) Jesus ascended to Heaven (no one else ever has).

4) Also, the dragon sought to kill the child - the dragon is satan, but it also is the empire ruled by him at the time (Rome - and Herod was ruling under Rome).
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Just to be certain...so the woman in Rev.12 is Israel, correct? Because the church did not bring forth Christ, but rather He brought forth the church. Is this correct? because I'm reading several commentaries that it insist the woman is the church. Thanks in advance!

Love,
Madeline

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I think we would all agree that any symbolism in the Bible is also explained elsewhere throughout the Bible.

Revelation 12:1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This symbolism is only used in the following passage:

Genesis 37:9-10 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

According to Joseph's dream, the sun, moon and twelve stars represent Jacob and Rachel, and Jacob's 12 sons. Therefore the woman only fits Israel. That makes sense - because the Messiah came through Israel (and there are OT passages that talk about the nation giving birth, etc.). As a child, the devil (and the empire ruled by him) sought to kill Him, and later He ascends to Heaven. Fits Jesus. He is to be the one who would rule the nations with a rod of iron - again, only Jesus fits this description.

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Just to be certain...so the woman in Rev.12 is Israel, correct? Because the church did not bring forth Christ, but rather He brought forth the church. Is this correct? because I'm reading several commentaries that it insist the woman is the church. Thanks in advance!

Love,
Madeline


Jerry said it greatly with biblical reference, but I'll just spell it out:
Jesus came from Israel the woman of rev chapt 12, and it was Jesus that started the church.
The woman, in revelation chapter 12, is attributed to Israel by most biblical scholars, with deviation mainly coming from apocalyptic churches (ones who think the end is near, we're at the end, know the date of the end, ect ect. )
The church couldn't of brought forth Jesus, sins had not been paid for yet.
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