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Rightly Dividing and Dispensational Theology


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Revelation 3:5 doesn't imply that people [i]loose[/i] their Salvation by God blotting out people's names. It only states what [b]God will not do[/b]. HE WILL NOT BLOT OUT THEIR NAMES. It is not written in the Bible that God blots out people's names--that's heresy.

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God's plan of salvation has always been the same for all persons regardless of the dispensation in which they lived or their national origin. We read in Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast". This is a universal truth. It has always been true of every person before, during and after God dealt with Israel in terms of their obedience to the law.

As we shall see in the paragraphs below, it is belief in God's message that makes one righteous. That message may vary from one person to the next, but if one believes that message he is saved by God's grace. ("For by grace are ye save through faith".)

We read in Gal. 3:6, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness". What was the message that Abraham believed? That question is answered in Gen. 15:5-6, "And He brought him forth abroad, and said, 'Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them'; and He said unto him, 'So shall thy seed be'. And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness". So when Abraham believed the message that God had for him,( i.e. his seed would be as the stars of heaven in number) that belief was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

The Greek word translated "believed" in Gal. 3:6 is "pisteuo". The Greek word translated "faith" in Heb. 11 is "pistis" and is obviously from the same root. "pisteuo", "To have faith in, hence to believe". Therefore, when we read of those mentioned in Heb. 11 who had faith, we know that they believed God. For example, we read in Heb. 11:7, "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house: by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith". Noah believed the message that God had for him concerning the flood, and that belief made him righteous. In other words, Noah was saved by his belief, i.e. his faith in God's message for him. ("By grace are ye saved through faith".)

Certainly, the message that Noah believed was different than the message given to Abraham, but they were both made righteous and thereby saved from eternal death, because they believed the message that God had for them.

As we consider Rom. 4:1-8 we shall see that even those under the law were saved by faith, not by the works of the law. "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath wereof to glory: but not before God. For what saith the Scripture" 'Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousess'. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is commuted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying 'Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin'". The point is that just as Abraham (who lived, of course before the law was given) was saved when he believed God, the testimony of David (who, of course, lived after the law was given) was the same, i.e. that salvation was not of works, but of faith.

To reiterate, I believe that the teaching of scripture is that God's plan of salvation is a universal truth, i.e. that it has always been the same for every person of every dispensation. That plan is that when one believes the particular message that God had for him, that belief, i.e. faith, is counted to him as righteousness. The message itself may change, but the basic plan of salvation is a universal truth, it never changes. ("By grace are ye saved through faith".)

We read in Rom. 2:13-17, "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another". This passage tells us that Gentiles who were not under law and may not even have ever heard of the Law of Moses were justified (saved) by their obedience to their own conscience. That was the message that they had been called upon to believe. If they obeyed that message (i.e. their consciences) they were saved by His grace. ("For by grace are ye save through faith".) The only work that can save us is Jesus' finished work on the cross.

Love,
Madeline

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Here's the long post I promised. :smile

I?m warning you, this is going to be a long post. This is a very deep subject. Salvation is [i]simple to explain to a lost man who needs to be saved, but the doctrine of salvation through different dispensations is a very deep topic. It?s not confusing or complicated if you study your Bible, but it may appear that way to someone who doesn?t understand it?. So hold onto your mouse and read. (You might want to grab your Bible, too.)

First of all, let?s look at salvation for the Old Testament Jew.
[center][b]
Righteousness of the Law vs. Righteousness of God[/b][/center]

Let?s go to Romans, a book of the Bible that?s pretty easy to read, but also very deep. First, check out Romans 2:26.

[i]Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the [b]righteousness of the law[/b], shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?[/i]

Ok, keep that phrase in mind. You see it again here:

[i]That the [b]righteousness of the law[/b] might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)[/i]

Now check this out:
[i]
For therein is the [b]righteousness of God[/b] revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Romans 1:17)

But if our unrighteousness commend the [b]righteousness of God[/b], what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) (Romans 3:5)[/i]

Anyone who truly believes every word of the Bible is inspired also believes that every word of the Bible is put there for a reason, right? If God is making a distinction between two different kinds of righteousnesses, then there MUST be a purpose!

Personal righteousness is required to make it into Heaven. After Christ?s ascension back into Heaven, righteousness became obtainable through faith in His death, burial, and resurrection. It?s obvious in Scripture that no one knew the Gospel previous to that ? they didn?t believe it was really going to happen. (remember Peter, the outspoken apostle?)

Righteousness was obtainable in a different way in the Old Testament. This can be clearly seen in Deuteronomy 6:25.

[i]And it shall be [b]our righteousness[/b], if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
[/i]
What most people do is take verses from the New Testament to try to make verses like this in the Old Testament mean something different than what they really say. Remember, the people back in the OT didn?t have the NT yet. They only knew what was written in the OT, and that is salvation obtained through obeying God?s commandments.
If you still don?t believe me, check out Ezekiel 18. Since it would take a lot of space to post the whole chapter, I?ll just give you a few verses (please read the rest on your own).

If you looked this up in your Bible, you?ll notice that God is the one speaking here:

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: [b]the soul that sinneth, it shall die.[/b] (Ezekiel 18:4)

5 [b]But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,[/b]
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; [b]he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.[/b] (Ezekiel 18:5-9)[/i]

If you think this is just talking about physical life, keep reading. (Remember, God doesn?t always kill people for living in sin, and He doesn?t always let people who do right live longer lives. If you were to apply these verses to physical life, you?d end up with a big huge mess trying to explain why so many good Christians have died young in accidents and why so many wicked people have lived long lives).

[i]21 But [b]if the wicked will turn from all his sins[/b] that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: [b]in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.[/b] (Ezekiel 18:21-22)[/i]

That?s Old Testament repentance, right there! Wicked men could be saved, if they turn from their wickedness and obeyed God?s commandments. Keep reading. (Isn?t it so awesome to see what God REALLY says in the Bible? This is SO simple, yet deep.)

[i]23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But [b]when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness[/b], and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and [b]in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.[/b][/i]

If you?ve ever spent time witnessing to people, I?m sure you?ve explained to them that if they don?t receive Christ, they will die in their sins. Correct?
Can?t you see that these verses clearly teach that the OT saint could turn from righteousness to wickedness, and die in his sins? (You can?t say he died without knowing Christ (like we would say about an unsaved person dying today), because this is still before Christ even showed up on Earth)

The typical person is going to get upset reading this chapter. Isn?t it amazing how God already knew that when He wrote it? Look at the next verses:

[i]25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezekiel 18:25-28)[/i]

God even repeats Himself, to make sure you get it! You know that when God says something once, He means it. If He says it twice, you?d better pay attention!

Here is the summary of the chapter.

[i]30 Therefore I will judge you, [b]O house of Israel[/b], every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 [b]For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.[/b] (Ezekiel 18:30-32)[/i]

First of all, notice that God is speaking to the ?house of Israel?, the Jews. This is definitely Old Testament doctrine. He?s calling them to repentance because He doesn?t want them to die in their sins. As a just and holy God, He must punish those who die in their sins, but you can even see His grace in the Old Testament? He warned them over and over. It?s just like when a father warns his children repeatedly of what will happen if they disobey him. It?s not because the dad wants to be mean, he?s doing it in love. Unlike human parents who sometimes don?t punish a child who deserves punishment, God must punish sinful behaviour. We know from the Bible that the punishment for sin is death (specifically spiritual death). When God looks at a sinner, He sees that man?s sin. In the OT, a man had to make sacrifices to cover those sins, so that God would not see them. However, for the New Testament believer, we can have our sins washed away by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Praise the Lord!) When God sees us now, He can?t see our sin? He sees the blood of His Son. The blood of lambs and goats in the OT couldn?t permanently cover sin, it was temporary (they had to make more than one sacrifice). Their salvation was by faith (believing what God said), and works (doing what God said).

If you still disagree, re-read Ezekiel chapter 18.

Now let?s move on to studying salvation for the Tribulation saint.

It?s pretty similar to salvation for the OT Jew, except that the Tribulation saint is required to endure till the end (obviously there will be an end to the Great Tribulation, there wasn?t a specific ?end? for the OT saint to be worried about). The Tribulation will be full of intense persecution for those who believe the Bible in those days. Another thing that makes the Tribulation more difficult is that in order to be saved, a man must keep God?s commandments. (No one could be a ?secret agent Christian?? someone who believes the Bible and lives a good life but doesn?t boldly do everything the Bible tells him to do. The Tribulation saint must endure serious persecution and may even be killed, if he wants to go to Heaven at the end. That?s why it?s so stupid for people to think they can wait till after the Rapture to get saved? besides the fact that they won?t be able to if they know the Gospel anyway.)

[i]To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3:21)

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Revelation 22:14)[/i]

Look specifically at the last verse I quoted. We know that any saved person will have access to the tree of life and will be able to enter through the gates of the city (New Jerusalem). The Tribulation saints, however, are told that they must keep his commandments to have that right. Hmm?.

Go back to that verse I quoted before, Revelation 3:5.

[i]He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
[/i]
I don?t have time right now to go through Hebrews and James and completely explain salvation in the Tribulation, but maybe I can do it later. I hope that you at least read this with an open mind and without the intention to just tear it to shreds, because only an honest and open-minded student of the Bible will understand it. I believe that God opens up the understanding of deep subjects like this to those who are willing to learn, but those who refuse to study it will never understand it.

I didn?t copy any of this from a book (except the Bible, of course). I did learn where to find these references in Scripture from a book, but all notes are from my own study. I just don?t want you thinking I copied this from Ruckman or some other author that all of you dislike so much. If it sounds like it came from any of those men, it?s probably because the Lord showed them the same thing He showed me.

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[quote="Jerry"][quote="KJB_Princess"]Can you prove that salvation is NEVER by works [u][b]using Scripture[/b][/u]?[/quote]

Been there, done that many times. I don't feel like writing another book on this theme right now though.

For those who are interested and want to dig deeper into this theme, check out these studies and [u]the passages they cover[/u]:

[url=http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot.htm][b]SALVATION IS THE SAME IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW[/b][/url]

[url=http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot2.htm][b]SALVATION IN THE O.T. AND N.T. - FOLLOW-UP[/b][/url][/quote]

I'm sorry, but it's only fair in discussion that you prove your position on your own. I didn't quote Ruckman or Stauffer or Walker or anyone else. I'm not going to read Cloud's article because it isn't what you wrote (I clicked the links actually hoping to read an article of your own, since I know you write many articles... if you had written it, I would've thoroughly read it).

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The OT says this:


"Job 25:4 [color=#0000FF] How then can man be justified with God?[/color] or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?"

"Psalm 3:8 [color=#0000FF] Salvation belongeth unto the LORD[/color] : thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah."

"Psalm 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for [color=#0000FF]
in thy sight shall no man living be justified.[/color]"


The NT says this:

"Romans 3:20 Therefore [color=#0000FF] by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.[/color]"

"Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith[color=#0000FF] without [/color] the deeds of the law."

"Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them [color=#0000FF] he [/color]also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

"Galatians 3:11 But that [color=#0000FF] no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/color]"

"Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, [color=#0000FF] whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace[/color]."


Notice in Galatians 3:11 that Paul quotes an OT verse as proof that it is faith in Christ and not works of the flesh that justify a man. Period. So much for being saved by works in another "dispensation". :roll

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[quote]I own the book and I've read it...it's EXCELLENT! The guy references over 1600 verses of Scripture in there, so that's gotta tell you something. I've seen many people teach false doctrine by taking just a couple verses and twisting them to mean something else. This guy uses more Scripture than the average Christian has even READ to prove his point![/quote]

I seriously doubt that the average true Christian today has read less than 1600 verses... But not to nit pick to much... :Green

[quote]Personal righteousness is required to make it into Heaven. [/quote]

We are in trouble then...

"Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and [color=#0000FF] all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags[/color]; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

"Revelation 21:27 And [color=#0000FF] there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth [/color], neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

"Zechariah 3:1-4
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? [color=#0000FF] Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments,[/color] and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, [color=#0000FF] Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.[/color] "

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[quote="Jerry"][quote="KJB_Princess"]Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; [b]and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

How do you explain God blotting out someone's name out of the book of life? We get our names written there when we get saved, right? Doesn't this imply the possibility of someone losing his salvation? [/quote]

FOR ONE: WHO IS AN OVERCOMER? EVERY TRUE BELIEVER!!

1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So God is promising not to blot out the names of all true believers from His Book of Life. If He is not going to blot out believers' names, who is there to blot out? The lost were never in that book to begin with.

Besides, it's a promise, not a threat. The word "not" is a double emphatic, and means, "No, never." It is the same Greek word used in John 3:16 (never perish), 6:37 (no wise cast out), 6:35 (never hunger, never thirst), and many other NT passages.

God is saying He will never, ever take someone's name out of His Book of Life when they trust Him for salvation. What tremendous assurance!!![/quote]
:goodpost: :goodpost: You said exactly what I was thinking.

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[quote="Seth Doty"]

[quote]Personal righteousness is required to make it into Heaven. [/quote]

We are in trouble then...
[/quote]

You misread that part of my post. Our "personal righteousness" in this dispensation is the righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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[quote="Seth Doty"]

I seriously doubt that the average true Christian today has read less than 1600 verses... But not to nit pick to much... :Green

[/quote]

hehe, well the majority of true Christians I know haven't read through the full Bible even once... I've seen preachers ask that question in church before. It's a sad truth of the day we live in.. the Bible is so easy to get that many Christians take it for granted.

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[quote="Seth Doty"]

"Galatians 3:11 But that [color=#0000FF] no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/color]"


Notice in Galatians 3:11 that Paul quotes an OT verse as proof that it is faith in Christ and not works of the flesh that justify a man. Period. So much for being saved by works in another "dispensation". :roll[/quote]

I don't mean to just pick your posts apart, but just bear with me here... :smile

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by [b]his[/b] faith.

Paul didn't directly quote the verse. The OT verse actually says "the just shall live by HIS faith."

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Well I guess I don't have a opened mind, because I read and still do not believe. There are so many hole in this. If this be true, how many of the old testament saints are in hell today??? Think about it. Noah, after leaving the ark got drunk, causing his son to look upon his nakedness. Abraham took Hagar because he wanted a son. Jacob, wow where to begin, lied, cheated, two wifes plus two concubines. Just Lot, as the New Testament refers to him, where are any of his good works. All that is said is his soul was vext. His grandchildren were also his children!!!! David, a man after God's own heart. Murder, lust, coverteousness, multiple wives. Solomon, 300 wifes and 700 concubines. He set up the Groves, and some of the idols. Good king Josiah. Worked his life restoring the kingdom to God. But at the end of his life he dies because he stands against a king God sent to fight against another nation. These are the examples that jump to the top of my mind, but the New Testament speaks of part of their faith. Some had great works at the beginning, but turned from them at the end. So what do the verses you say I will get mad about really say??? By their fruits ye shall know them. An evil man that turns to God with their heart will start showing works meet for repentance. But there are many men who will act for a time very Godly, and then there true colors come out and there fruit shows forth to be bitter and rotten.

[quote]because this is still before Christ even showed up on Earth)

[/quote]

When did Christ show up on the earth?? Before Abraham was, I am. Was Christ taught in the Old Testament???

[quote]Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.[/quote]

Christ was taught all through the old testament. The sacrifices were a picture of him. Hebrews, the book you say tells how that salvation is of works says in chapter 10:

[quote][10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[/quote]

The priest offering did not forgive any sins!!! Only the blood of Christ which was pictured in the sacrifices can do that. You are correct that it takes righteousness to enter heaven. The old testament saints did not have the righteousness of Christ's life, death, and resurection having been done for them. That is why when Lazereth Died, he was carried to Abrahams Boosom, not heaven. After Christ assended, he led captivity captive. He took those from Abraham's boosom to the father through his own righteousness. If you are correct then those in the old testament can boast to us in eternity that they were able to keep their salvation, when we were not able!!!

Madeline, :amen: :amen:

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[quote="KJB_Princess"][quote="Seth Doty"]

I seriously doubt that the average true Christian today has read less than 1600 verses... But not to nit pick to much... :Green

[/quote]

hehe, well the majority of true Christians I know haven't read through the full Bible even once... I've seen preachers ask that question in church before. It's a sad truth of the day we live in.. the Bible is so easy to get that many Christians take it for granted.[/quote]

Seems that some of the weakest "christians" I have met though run to this, "I read the Bible through X times a year". A true study of God's word will take you through the Bible. But if you are reading it through so as to say I have done so, you will end up with nothing. If you start studying in one spot, and I mean studying not reading, you will bounce around comparing scriptures, until you have read the Bible through. This is more important that reading it through starting in Gen. and going in a straight line til Rev.

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[quote="kevinmiller"][quote="Jerry"][quote="KJB_Princess"]Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; [b]and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

How do you explain God blotting out someone's name out of the book of life? We get our names written there when we get saved, right? Doesn't this imply the possibility of someone losing his salvation? [/quote]

FOR ONE: WHO IS AN OVERCOMER? EVERY TRUE BELIEVER!!

1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So God is promising not to blot out the names of all true believers from His Book of Life. If He is not going to blot out believers' names, who is there to blot out? The lost were never in that book to begin with.

Besides, it's a promise, not a threat. The word "not" is a double emphatic, and means, "No, never." It is the same Greek word used in John 3:16 (never perish), 6:37 (no wise cast out), 6:35 (never hunger, never thirst), and many other NT passages.

God is saying He will never, ever take someone's name out of His Book of Life when they trust Him for salvation. What tremendous assurance!!![/quote]
:goodpost: :goodpost: You said exactly what I was thinking.[/quote]

But why would God have to make a promise not to blot out someone's name, if there wasn't a chance of it being blotted out in the first place? He made it conditional.. it's to "he that overcometh."

You didn't even use context to define that verse. Instead, you pulled verses out of other places in the Bible that weren't talking about the same subject.

It's obvious that the first part of Revelation 3 is directed to those living in the Tribulation.

[i]1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/i]

Verse 3 makes this crystal clear.. especially if you've read the rest of the NT. Remember in 1 Thessalonians 5 when Paul is talking about the Rapture?

[i]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (1 Thessalonians 5:2)[/i]

So verse 3 of Revelation 3 is talking about the day of the Lord, the Rapture. Sure, you could try to say this is still talking to Christians in the church age, but look:

[i]4 [b]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief[/b].
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Thessalonians 5:4-9)[/i]

That's some awesome Scripture right there! Just look at verse 4... the Rapture isn't going to be like a "thief in the night" to us. It'll only come that way to those who are still in darkness... hmm....

Could that mean it's talking to people who are going to be left behind??? :wink That's the only thing I can think of.

If you read Revelation 3:1-5 as being written to people in the Tribulation, you'll see it a whole lot deeper and it makes a whole lot more sense that way. I know that there are other applications for what's written to the seven churches in the book of Revelation, but this is a very obvious doctrinal application right here.

I know that goes against what Cloud and most IFB preachers would say... but who's our authority, the Bible or Baptist preachers??

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[quote="rancher824"][quote="KJB_Princess"][quote="Seth Doty"]

I seriously doubt that the average true Christian today has read less than 1600 verses... But not to nit pick to much... :Green

[/quote]

hehe, well the majority of true Christians I know haven't read through the full Bible even once... I've seen preachers ask that question in church before. It's a sad truth of the day we live in.. the Bible is so easy to get that many Christians take it for granted.[/quote]

Seems that some of the weakest "christians" I have met though run to this, "I read the Bible through X times a year". A true study of God's word will take you through the Bible. But if you are reading it through so as to say I have done so, you will end up with nothing. If you start studying in one spot, and I mean studying not reading, you will bounce around comparing scriptures, until you have read the Bible through. This is more important that reading it through starting in Gen. and going in a straight line til Rev.[/quote]

I study the Bible, too... just like you just explained, and you know what? It's an amazing Book! It's through that kind of study that I've really begun to understand the doctrine of dispensationalism. The Holy Spirit has an amazing way of making the Bible so clear... yet allowing us to realize how deep and incredible that Book is! What an amazing God we have! :Green

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[quote="KJB_Princess"][quote="kevinmiller"][quote="Jerry"][quote="KJB_Princess"]Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; [b]and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

How do you explain God blotting out someone's name out of the book of life? We get our names written there when we get saved, right? Doesn't this imply the possibility of someone losing his salvation? [/quote]

FOR ONE: WHO IS AN OVERCOMER? EVERY TRUE BELIEVER!!

1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So God is promising not to blot out the names of all true believers from His Book of Life. If He is not going to blot out believers' names, who is there to blot out? The lost were never in that book to begin with.

Besides, it's a promise, not a threat. The word "not" is a double emphatic, and means, "No, never." It is the same Greek word used in John 3:16 (never perish), 6:37 (no wise cast out), 6:35 (never hunger, never thirst), and many other NT passages.

God is saying He will never, ever take someone's name out of His Book of Life when they trust Him for salvation. What tremendous assurance!!![/quote]
:goodpost: :goodpost: You said exactly what I was thinking.[/quote]

But why would God have to make a promise not to blot out someone's name, if there wasn't a chance of it being blotted out in the first place? He made it conditional.. it's to "he that overcometh."

You didn't even use context to define that verse. Instead, you pulled verses out of other places in the Bible that weren't talking about the same subject.

It's obvious that the first part of Revelation 3 is directed to those living in the Tribulation.

[i]1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/i]

Verse 3 makes this crystal clear.. especially if you've read the rest of the NT. Remember in 1 Thessalonians 5 when Paul is talking about the Rapture?

[i]For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (1 Thessalonians 5:2)[/i]

So verse 3 of Revelation 3 is talking about the day of the Lord, the Rapture. Sure, you could try to say this is still talking to Christians in the church age, but look:

[i]4 [b]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief[/b].
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Thessalonians 5:4-9)[/i]

That's some awesome Scripture right there! Just look at verse 4... the Rapture isn't going to be like a "thief in the night" to us. It'll only come that way to those who are still in darkness... hmm....

Could that mean it's talking to people who are going to be left behind??? :wink That's the only thing I can think of.

If you read Revelation 3:1-5 as being written to people in the Tribulation, you'll see it a whole lot deeper and it makes a whole lot more sense that way. I know that there are other applications for what's written to the seven churches in the book of Revelation, but this is a very obvious doctrinal application right here.

I know that goes against what Cloud and most IFB preachers would say... but who's our authority, the Bible or Baptist preachers??[/quote]


Is it just me or are you contridicting yourself there. Rightly dividing remember. We are in the chuch age. Old testament, new testament church age, tribulation, millenium. Thi is one of the seven letters to the CHURCHES. Not tribulation saints, churches. You cannot argue that point in that it is addressed to the church. Verse 3 says will come, not have came. Unless you are a Mid tribulation Rapture (I do not know that much of Ruckman) This must not be during the Tribulation. If it is, you have an overlapping of the church age and tribulation. Will some be saved one way, while others another way during that time???

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