Rightly Dividing and Dispensational Theology

[kevinmiller]

I haven't read it.

Are you saying that people in the OT went to Hell if they sinned? There was not one person in the Old Testament that could have been justified by their works. They all "messed up somehow." Moses wasn't allowed into the Promised Land because he broke the commandments, did he go to Hell? Why does Hebrews say that Abraham was justified by faith?

As far as the tribulation goes...If you remember, in Revelation, it says that he seals those whom have trusted Him in their foreheads. You can't break a seal that God has set. That implies that God has given them divine protection and nothing can break that seal, not even sin.

[Jerry]

[quote="KJB_Princess"]I don't mean any disrespect, but I hope you don't think people here look to you as an authority on what "sound Bible doctrine" is. Sure, some people may choose to, but ultimately most people here should be able to figure it out through their own study of the Bible, with the Holy Spirit's guidance. (and if they don't know, they should ask their pastor.[/quote]

No, I do not consider myself as an authority - the Bible is. I do know though that garbage in equals garbage out - and the Bible teaches that as well in various passages - therefore I warn people against what I believe is error according to the Bible. If someone is determined to read that author, then at least they have been forewarned against their problems.

[Jerry]

[quote="pneu-engine"]Are you saying that before Christ's death and resurrection (O.T.) and after the Rapture (Tribulation saints) people could lose their salvation???????? Please tell me that I'm only misunderstanding you.[/quote]

Yes, that is what she is saying. Some of these hyperdispensationalists teach exactly that - though I cannot remember specifically if it was Ruckman and Stauffer that teach that (though they do teach salvation by works in the OT and Trib period).

[Madeline]

*sigh* Salvation by works is a complete contradiction concerning the righteousness of God, which teaches that none of our works can merit us salvation. Any bible student with a modicum of biblical understanding should know this. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, even in the OT.

[Guest Guest]

The main problem here is that you all see someone saying that the Old Testament teaches salvation by faith plus works, and you immediately say that we're trying to say that we have to work for our salvation. This is an incredibly dense view; things change in the Bible! What Adam was supposed to do was vastly different from what Noah was supposed to do, which was entirely different from what God told Moses, which isn't even distantly relevant to what Paul taught! Things change: the OT is different in teaching from the NT, and there are even four different time periods covered by the NT!

No one is saying that you have to do anything to get saved. Salvation IS by grace through faith alone. IS, present tense. "IT IS NO MORE OF WORKS," Paul said. That statement CLEARLY says that it was once of works, but no longer is. I'll be back later; I need to get a little shut-eye. But in the meantime, find the differences between Justification and Sanctification in the Bible, and you'll be able to see more clearly where I'm coming from when I continue.

[Madeline]

Anyone here don't know the difference between Justification and Sanctification? :duh

[kevinmiller]

[quote="Madeline"]Anyone here don't know the difference between Justification and Sanctification? :duh[/quote]
You know, somehow that question goes perfectly with your profile picture. :lol

[John81]

[quote="kevinmiller"][quote="Madeline"]Anyone here don't know the difference between Justification and Sanctification? :duh[/quote]
You know, somehow that question goes perfectly with your profile picture. :lol[/quote]

:lol: Yeah, it does! :thumb

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

[quote="MC1171611"]The main problem here is that you all see someone saying that the Old Testament teaches salvation by faith plus works, and you immediately say that we're trying to say that we have to work for our salvation. This is an incredibly dense view; things change in the Bible! What Adam was supposed to do was vastly different from what Noah was supposed to do, which was entirely different from what God told Moses, which isn't even distantly relevant to what Paul taught! Things change: the OT is different in teaching from the NT, and there are even four different time periods covered by the NT!

No one is saying that you have to do anything to get saved. Salvation IS by grace through faith alone. IS, present tense. "IT IS NO MORE OF WORKS," Paul said. That statement CLEARLY says that it was once of works, but no longer is. I'll be back later; I need to get a little shut-eye. But in the meantime, find the differences between Justification and Sanctification in the Bible, and you'll be able to see more clearly where I'm coming from when I continue.[/quote]

Salvation has always been and always will be(ot. and nt) by grace through faith.You need God's imputed righteousness to be saved(ot. nt.) and that is only by faith in Jesus.Human works will never,have never,made anyone have the righteouness of God.

[Guest Guest]

[quote]Human works will never,have never,made anyone have the righteouness of God.[/quote]

:amen: Let me add a few more nevers to the end of that... :Green

[Jerry]

[quote="MC1171611"]No one is saying that you have to do anything to get saved. Salvation IS by grace through faith alone. IS, present tense. "IT IS NO MORE OF WORKS," Paul said. That statement CLEARLY says that it was once of works, but no longer is.[/quote]

If you have to earn salvation in the first place - it's works. If you have to keep it by your works - it's by works. Both are wrong, and both still teach a works-based salvation. Don't know why you can't or won't see that.

[Guest Guest]

[quote="John81"]Has anyone read this book:

Bible Believers Guide to Dispensationalism by David Walker

I couldn't find that book on Amazon.com[/quote]


I own the book and I've read it...it's EXCELLENT! The guy references over 1600 verses of Scripture in there, so that's gotta tell you something. I've seen many people teach false doctrine by taking just a couple verses and twisting them to mean something else. This guy uses more Scripture than the average Christian has even READ to prove his point! :smile


To those who were wondering if they misunderstood me, yes I did say that people could lose their salvation prior to Christ's death on the cross, and it will be possible for them to lose it in the Tribulation.

I'm going to try to work on a longer post, if I have time, but for now I'll just post one verse that comes to mind right now. It's directed to people in the Tribulation, and I've heard too many people try to explain away this verse with no Scripture to back up their position. (I think it scares people to believe that this verse really means what it looks like it means... because it'll destroy the "salvation is never by works + faith" argument)

[color=#BF0040]Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; [b]and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.[/color]

How do you explain God blotting out someone's name out of the book of life? We get our names written there when we get saved, right? Doesn't this imply the possibility of someone losing his salvation?

Think about it. Please give Scripture. :smile

[Guest Guest]

[quote="Jerry"][quote="MC1171611"]No one is saying that you have to do anything to get saved. Salvation IS by grace through faith alone. IS, present tense. "IT IS NO MORE OF WORKS," Paul said. That statement CLEARLY says that it was once of works, but no longer is.[/quote]

If you have to earn salvation in the first place - it's works. If you have to keep it by your works - it's by works. Both are wrong, and both still teach a works-based salvation. Don't know why you can't or won't see that.[/quote]

Can you prove that salvation is NEVER by works [u][b]using Scripture[/b][/u]? :smile

[Jerry]

[quote="KJB_Princess"]Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; [b]and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

How do you explain God blotting out someone's name out of the book of life? We get our names written there when we get saved, right? Doesn't this imply the possibility of someone losing his salvation? [/quote]

FOR ONE: WHO IS AN OVERCOMER? EVERY TRUE BELIEVER!!

1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So God is promising not to blot out the names of all true believers from His Book of Life. If He is not going to blot out believers' names, who is there to blot out? The lost were never in that book to begin with.

Besides, it's a promise, not a threat. The word "not" is a double emphatic, and means, "No, never." It is the same Greek word used in John 3:16 (never perish), 6:37 (no wise cast out), 6:35 (never hunger, never thirst), and many other NT passages.

God is saying He will never, ever take someone's name out of His Book of Life when they trust Him for salvation. What tremendous assurance!!!

[Jerry]

[quote="KJB_Princess"]Can you prove that salvation is NEVER by works [u][b]using Scripture[/b][/u]?[/quote]

Been there, done that many times. I don't feel like writing another book on this theme right now though.

For those who are interested and want to dig deeper into this theme, check out these studies and [u]the passages they cover[/u]:

[url=http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot.htm][b]SALVATION IS THE SAME IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW[/b][/url]

[url=http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot2.htm][b]SALVATION IN THE O.T. AND N.T. - FOLLOW-UP[/b][/url]