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Bakershalfdozen

Gender Roles

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The Great Commission is for everyone to fulfill. It doesn't say go door to door, but it does teach to be witnesses.

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[quote="Jerry"]The Great Commission is for everyone to fulfill. It doesn't say go door to door, but it does teach to be witnesses.[/quote]

I agree it is to everyone. But considering what she went on to say brings a thought to my mind. In a world of people looking to build up self, wanting high paying jobs, and the fanciest of everything, most wife/mothers feel they must work to bring in extra money. We look around and see the day care system raising our children (the hand that rocks the craddle rules the world). How much does it stand out when a God fearing family does without the fancy new cars, and bigger house so that mom can stay home and raise her family. Sometimes this may be the attention it takes to be the light into someones life. Seeing her put her family first may show them God leading a family. Theu may ask what makes the differance and us be able to point them to God.

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[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]

1. Can a woman work outside the home and still be Biblical? [color=#BF00FF][color=#8000FF]Since I currently work outside the home, I would hope that in certain cases the answer would be "yes." I started working full time a year ago with my husband's blessing. About 6 weeks later our ministry came to an abrupt end. We found we REALLY needed my full time income. We still need it but my husband knows I will cheerfully quit/cut back as soon as I can.[/color][/color]

2. Does a wife have to ask her husband permission for every thing she does? [color=#BF00FF]I sure hope not! Being submissive doesn't mean brainless. Have some common sense, for crying out loud.[/color]

3. Just what is submission anyway? [color=#BF00FF]Deferring to the husband when your ideas clash and after prayer and discussion.[/color]

4. What does it mean for a man to love his wife the way Christ loved the Church? [color=#BF00FF]See the appropriate Bible verses so aptly quoted above. LOL[/color]

5. Is being a "house husband" wrong? [color=#BF00FF]In certain cases, no. I really shy away from putting everybody in a box, so to speak.[/color]

6. Is it wrong for a man to ask his wife to take care of the household finances? [color=#BF00FF]Since I work for a bank, I would have to say a big, loud NO!! I see soooo many people who have no clue whatsoever about handling finances and if they would just let their spouse handle them they would be so much better off. Whoever is gifted should take the lead and the spouses should work on it TOGETHER so they have common goals.[/color]

7. Women voting thread participants, where does the Bible say it is wrong for a woman to vote? [color=#BF00FF]It doesn't. (Sis, you always bring up the most provoking thoughts! Tee hee.)[/color]

.[/quote]

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Good post Katie. I agree with you. And fulfilling the great commission doesn't necessarily mean preaching in the streets or soulwinning as much as it means being a witness to those you come in contact with, whether in church or at the grocery store.

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[quote="Jerry"]The Great Commission is for everyone to fulfill. It doesn't say go door to door, but it does teach to be witnesses.[/quote]

I agree we should all be witnesses, but I can't see that the great commission is a direct command to women. If that's the case, then we women should be baptizing.

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You have to understand the cultural divide between what was written to 1st century Christians and how that applies today. Jesus gave women roles that they never had before. In that culture is would have been shocking. Simply because most of the admonitions from God were gender neutral or masculine does not mean they do not apply to you.

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Katie,

We do door to door out of my church. My wife doesn't go on door to door. My wife's job (right now) is to disciple and turn out godly children (it's OUR job, but for the purpose of this discussion, she spends a lot more time formally teaching the children than I do). What good is it if she knocks and every door and our children have a shipwrecked faith?

But, with that said... she fulfills the great commission. We have special days (on Saturdays) that we do a John & Romans and she helps on those. She disciples teens, she works in our Sunday School class... she travels with me as we present the ministry.

But her main goal is to raise our children. And that's the thing God has given her to do right now.

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Well, I can't post the article but I can post the links.

I first read Men, Women, Authority & Power on the FFF, written by Bassenco. Read* the first 2 posts by her to read what I am talking about.

Her webpage contains these same articles and more. I in no way endorse everything this woman has written or everything she stands for but I did find this article interesting.

*Note: if the word "women" is highlighted in red when you click on that link, it is because I found the thread through a search.

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Lest anyone think I'm a wannabe feminist, I'm not. I believe the Bible when it says that women are to submit to their husband (he has the final say), reverence their husband, be keepers at home and try to be a Proverbs 31 woman as much as possible (who had her own business, BTW).

What I dislike and argue against is the idea that women are only for making babies, cooking the food and cleaning the house and that they have nothing else to contribute mentally or spiritually. Jesus did indeed give women the right to learn from Him and of Him when He said that Mary had chosen the better part. I argue against the idea that women shouldn't go to college or advance their education. My education has made me a better "domestic engineer". :wink I have no desire for a career; I can take what I learned in college and my employment experience before children to help my husband in his business and in our home through my secretarial skills. My husband and I are able to converse on the same level in every area. We discuss & pray together about major decisions (moving, church, etc.) He has the final say but he values my input.

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1. Can a woman work outside the home and still be Biblical? If her husband permits or requires it, yes. She can be a stay at home mom and not be Biblical!!! The best scenario is to be a sahm, but that isn't always possible. I would say that if the husband says no, the wife should not be working outside the hom.

2. Does a wife have to ask her husband permission for every thing she does? Um, no. The Bible says of the virtuous woman that her husband's heart safely trusts in her. A husband who trusts in his wife (and he will if he takes the time to know her as Dwayne pointed out) will not try to make the wife seek permission in all things, and the wife who is right will know which things she needs permission for and which things will not cause a problem in the home. Example: several years ago a Kirby salesman came to my house and demonstrated. Of course I liked it, but I told him there was no way I was going to order one w/o talking to my hubby. He really tried to pressure me by saying some really stupid things (one of them was, "Well, did he ask before he bought that riding lawn mower?" and the mower wasn't even ours :lol: ). He just couldn't get that I wasn't going to do that. Now, I could have ordered one...and it would have hurt us terribly financially. That's the kind of thing a wife should ask permission for - not when to wash her hair (I truly knew a woman who did that! :eek )

3. Just what is submission anyway? I think everyone's already summed it up well.

4. What does it mean for a man to love his wife the way Christ loved the Church? ditto

5. Is being a "house husband" wrong?As someone already posted, if the hubby had some kind of disability where he couldn't work, then no. But if it's just because she makes more money at her job than he would, than yes. The Bible tells women to be the keepers at home and men to provide for their house...

6. Is it wrong for a man to ask his wife to take care of the household finances? No - if he hands it to her, he is taking the lead by giving that household responsibility to her. If she shrewishly demands it, then yes. I know couples where the husband knows that if he has complete access to the money he will blow it (not on bad stuff, just buy things), and so the man has the wife handle $$. That's looking out for the best interest of the family, IMO. But there are some women who just couldn't do it. I personally don't like dealing with the money situation, so am very glad that my husband takes care of it.

7. Women voting thread participants, where does the Bible say it is wrong for a woman to vote? It doesn't.


What I dislike and argue against is the idea that women are only for making babies, cooking the food and cleaning the house and that they have nothing else to contribute mentally or spiritually. Jesus did indeed give women the right to learn from Him and of Him when He said that Mary had chosen the better part. I argue against the idea that women shouldn't go to college or advance their education. My education has made me a better "domestic engineer". I have no desire for a career; I can take what I learned in college and my employment experience before children to help my husband in his business and in our home through my secretarial skills. My husband and I are able to converse on the same level in every area. We discuss & pray together about major decisions (moving, church, etc.) He has the final say but he values my input
. :thumb

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Lest anyone think I'm a wannabe feminist, I'm not. I believe the Bible when it says that women are to submit to their husband (he has the final say), reverence their husband, be keepers at home and try to be a Proverbs 31 woman as much as possible (who had her own business, BTW).

What I dislike and argue against is the idea that women are only for making babies, cooking the food and cleaning the house and that they have nothing else to contribute mentally or spiritually. Jesus did indeed give women the right to learn from Him and of Him when He said that Mary had chosen the better part. I argue against the idea that women shouldn't go to college or advance their education. My education has made me a better "domestic engineer". :wink I have no desire for a career; I can take what I learned in college and my employment experience before children to help my husband in his business and in our home through my secretarial skills. My husband and I are able to converse on the same level in every area. We discuss & pray together about major decisions (moving, church, etc.) He has the final say but he values my input.



The problem here is that no one has suggested what you are suggesting they have above. At least in my opinion, I don't believe that anyone here has suggested that.

But be careful extrapolating that Jesus "gave women the right to learn" by a passage about Martha and Mary. Every scripture has truth and it has application. You can use that as an application, but that wasn't the primary truth of that passage. (I don't want to side-track the whole thread because of the point, so if anyone wants to discuss the primary truth of Mary, Martha and Jesus, start a new thread.) My point is that people are pulling an agenda out of the verse that isn't there. Jesus died for all so that all can have a personal relationship with him, the verse wasn't speaking to the roles of women in the home or the church.

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Well I didn't say anyone had suggested this topic. I suggested it because I like starting discussions. Some people do have a problem in this area and have made statements like, "You weren't built for thinking" or "Girls shouldn't go to college; all they need to know is how to cook and clean".


I also didn't say that was the primary application of the Mary, Martha passage. It isn't. But in all the exegesis of that passage, it is still interesting to point out that Jesus never told Mary to go back to the kitchen because "that's where you belong".

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haha, I guess dwayner actually suggested this particular topic. Zeal, just think of this and all the other women threads as the topic of the month. :lol: Next month it will be something else. We discuss all kinds of things here w/o having an agenda.

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Well I didn't say anyone had suggested this topic. I suggested it because I like starting discussions. Some people do have a problem in this area and have made statements like, "You weren't built for thinking" or "Girls shouldn't go to college; all they need to know is how to cook and clean".


I also didn't say that was the primary application of the Mary, Martha passage. It isn't. But in all the exegesis of that passage, it is still interesting to point out that Jesus never told Mary to go back to the kitchen because "that's where you belong".


I can honestly say I've never in my 44 years heard any of those above statements; though I don't doubt someone somewhere has made them sometime.

Jesus always made it clear that He would only be among them for a limited time and it was needful for all to use that time to be with Him. If this has any lasting applications for today, I would say it's the fact we should always put Christ first.

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Well I didn't say anyone had suggested this topic. I suggested it because I like starting discussions. Some people do have a problem in this area and have made statements like, "You weren't built for thinking" or "Girls shouldn't go to college; all they need to know is how to cook and clean".


I also didn't say that was the primary application of the Mary, Martha passage. It isn't. But in all the exegesis of that passage, it is still interesting to point out that Jesus never told Mary to go back to the kitchen because "that's where you belong".


He never told her to be President of Judah either... lol. That's my point.

The whole point of the passage is service is needed and honorable, but adoration and glory to Christ are the prime thing. Or put another way, we can have the creator sitting in our living room teaching us words of life and be busy about our chores because we think they are so important.

I am sorry that you have run into people who have said those things, I truly am... but (to me at least) that is so obviously unbiblical that I have a hard time even arguing (even fictitiously) the point.

Adoration and service... adoration is the better part.

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haha' date=' I guess dwayner actually suggested this particular topic. Zeal, just think of this and all the other women threads as the topic of the month. :lol: Next month it will be something else. We discuss all kinds of things here w/o having an agenda.[/quote']
lol, well I don't mean YOU personally have an agenda. Bassenco... hmmm, unfortunately, I think I remember that name reading those forums before.

I just believe the scripture speaks so clearly on the issue (for both sides) that there is no need to pull out obscure applications from other scriptures.

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I agree we should all be witnesses' date=' but I can't see that the great commission is a direct command to women. If that's the case, then we women should be baptizing.[/quote']

Well, not every male is to be baptizing either - only pastors and deacons, and perhaps preachers. I believe the Great Commission is for each church collectively/together.

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Ok, maybe my thoughts on women and the great commission are wrong. (how's that for conceding a point? :lol ) But I've heard it preached/taught that all women MUST go out door-to-door EVERY week or they're in direct disobedience to the Bible. That's where the rub comes in. I sure can't do that here, and it would be mighty hard for some of my other friends who have newborns and toddlers - especially when their husbands don't by any means help to make it happen. Perhaps a separate discussion could be started on methods of following out the great commission. (imho, the door-to-door thing is actually an "easy way out" approach to witnessing - I've realized it's a world of difference from that and reaching out to the people who are your neighbors, friends, and family, and co-workers.) I just feel like that "must go door-to-door" type teaching has been pounded into me for years, and from what some of you are saying about the great commission being for all, then I can't get out from under that heavy umbrella of guilt. (Is guilt wrong?)

As an aside - this doesn't mean that I'm not having a part in my husband's witness. We don't have a church house to bring people to, and we can't go door-to-door, but we have people over to our home so often. What else can we do when we can't go to them other than to bring them to us? This gets a bit wearying at times, but that's about our only option.

As for the thinking/teaching that when Jesus came, he changed the status of women. I've actually not heard this teaching before, and just from my reading and study of the Bible, I don't see it clearly stated there. But the point I was trying to make before is that perhaps we women should get back to reading, studying and learning how to apply verses that are directly for us instead of reading into things that may or may not be there. I will read the links that were provided about the Mary/Martha thing.

Oh, one more thing - I feel strongly about this stuff and that many women (and men, I guess) take this women's rights thing way too far. However, I admit that it's easy for me to say - my husband takes his role of lover/protector/provider/guider/leader very seriously, and usually( :cool ) he makes it easy for me to follow him. If he were a tyrant, I'm pretty sure I'd have a real hard time accepting the fact that I'm supposed to be submissive to him, and in fact, perhaps I'd be too busy with my women's right's marches for a forum like this! :Green But for the most part, my husband respects me and my thoughts greatly - one of our favorite things to do together is get into long discussions on theology and the Bible or any old topic that interests us, and when it comes to our discussions, we usually agree on things in the end, and if we don't, we both study things out better and come back to the topic later and eventually come to an agreement.

(btw - Do you all discuss forum topics with your spouses much? I love bringing discussions I read here to my hubby to see his point of view, and sometimes I show him a topic when it's particularly interesting. I just wish he had more time and could join in here! He and I together would make a formidable team against any of you in a debate! :frog )

(And another btw - I love having discussions like this with you all! If you knew my college background, you maybe would understand why it's amazing to me to see people on different sides of a topic who can politely discuss and disagree on things but yet not get nasty in the process, and I find great delight in it here and am often amazed at the graciousness I see here even in the face of disagreement. :clap::clap: )

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matiek, I grew up in similar circumstances. :smile Going door-to-door every Saturday AM isn't the only way to witness. You know this. That is a man-made rule. Nothing wrong with it but it shouldn't put you on a guilt trip. Many a female missionary in foreign countries witness for Christ simply by living a Christian example in their community, having some ladies over for tea, starting a children's Bible club in their backyard, etc.

And yes, my dh and I discuss issues from these boards. We both love a deep discussion and also usually end up agreeing.

It is nice that (most of the time) we all can discuss most anything here with a godly spirit.

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Katie, the Great Commission is for everyone. But don't you know that you are already a part of it? You are with your hubby in China...fulfilling the Great Commission. When you bring people into your home, since that is the best way in that culture to meet with people, you are being a witness.

As Bakers has said, door-to-door is man's tradition (based on Jesus sending His disciples out two by two, but still...). It is so easy to be bowed with guilt because of man's tradition (especially for us women who are mothers...we're good at giving guilt trips, but we're good at taking them too! :lol: ).

As a wife and mother, your primary responsibility is to your family. We all know that. You are also a missionary's wife. That is an added responsibility, because of ministry responsibilities. You are also in a foreign country, so you have the added responsibility of being a foreigner (and that can be a strain, especially on a wife!). If your heart is right with God (and I believe it is...I'd love to be able to spend some face-to-face fellowship time with you!), you will witness when and how God leads you.

The Great Commission does not dictate how witnessing is to be done, nor how much during the week, nor how many doors to knock on, etc. You concentrate on the ones God has burdened you for, and you will be fulfilling the Great Commission. Remember

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
? That's talking about the converts...disciple them. How do people get discipled? By spending time with them. How can you spend time with them? Have them over to your house.....hmmmm, sounds to me like you're doing it!!

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Katie, the Great Commission is for everyone. But don't you know that you are already a part of it? You are with your hubby in China...fulfilling the Great Commission. When you bring people into your home, since that is the best way in that culture to meet with people, you are being a witness.

As Bakers has said, door-to-door is man's tradition (based on Jesus sending His disciples out two by two, but still...). It is so easy to be bowed with guilt because of man's tradition (especially for us women who are mothers...we're good at giving guilt trips, but we're good at taking them too! :lol: ).

As a wife and mother, your primary responsibility is to your family. We all know that. You are also a missionary's wife. That is an added responsibility, because of ministry responsibilities. You are also in a foreign country, so you have the added responsibility of being a foreigner (and that can be a strain, especially on a wife!). If your heart is right with God (and I believe it is...I'd love to be able to spend some face-to-face fellowship time with you!), you will witness when and how God leads you.

The Great Commission does not dictate how witnessing is to be done, nor how much during the week, nor how many doors to knock on, etc. You concentrate on the ones God has burdened you for, and you will be fulfilling the Great Commission. Remember ? That's talking about the converts...disciple them. How do people get discipled? By spending time with them. How can you spend time with them? Have them over to your house.....hmmmm, sounds to me like you're doing it!!


:amen:

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Katie, the Great Commission is for everyone. But don't you know that you are already a part of it? You are with your hubby in China...fulfilling the Great Commission. When you bring people into your home, since that is the best way in that culture to meet with people, you are being a witness.

As Bakers has said, door-to-door is man's tradition (based on Jesus sending His disciples out two by two, but still...). It is so easy to be bowed with guilt because of man's tradition (especially for us women who are mothers...we're good at giving guilt trips, but we're good at taking them too! :lol: ).

As a wife and mother, your primary responsibility is to your family. We all know that. You are also a missionary's wife. That is an added responsibility, because of ministry responsibilities. You are also in a foreign country, so you have the added responsibility of being a foreigner (and that can be a strain, especially on a wife!). If your heart is right with God (and I believe it is...I'd love to be able to spend some face-to-face fellowship time with you!), you will witness when and how God leads you.

The Great Commission does not dictate how witnessing is to be done, nor how much during the week, nor how many doors to knock on, etc. You concentrate on the ones God has burdened you for, and you will be fulfilling the Great Commission. Remember ? That's talking about the converts...disciple them. How do people get discipled? By spending time with them. How can you spend time with them? Have them over to your house.....hmmmm, sounds to me like you're doing it!!


Thank you for the encouragement! I'd love to get together with you someday too!

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[color=#0000FF][i]1. Can a woman work outside the home and still be Biblical?[/i][/color]

Yes, but only of circumstances demand it. I know of many wives that worked to support their husbands while they attended seminary, so he could focus his attention on that. In our case we had kids with a severe congenital condition and after I was turned down for a job with insurance, they same company hired my wife. She went to work, and I stayed home. We just recently switched, and I'm now working and she's at home.

[color=#0000FF][i]2. Does a wife have to ask her husband permission for every thing she does?[/i][/color]

Yes, even when she breathes. Obviously the answer is no, but submission would require at least some permission for some things.

[color=#0000FF][i]3. Just what is submission anyway?[/i][/color]

Sub-under. Mission-goals. The wife should allow the usband to be the fonal arbiitor of the families mission and purpose.

[color=#0000FF][i]4. What does it mean for a man to love his wife the way Christ loved the Church?[/i][/color]

To put her safety and security above his own.

[color=#0000FF][i]5. Is being a "house husband" wrong?[/i][/color]

See answer #1

[color=#0000FF][i]6. Is it wrong for a man to ask his wife to take care of the household finances?[/i][/color]

I've heard it argued that who controls the checkbook controls the family, and therefore the husband should be the one in charge of finances. If the wife is hiding financial info, then she shouldn't be in charge. If the husband is letting her do it just because he doesn't want to bother with it, then he needs to stop shirking his duty. But there are some people that are just terrible with finances. In those cases, where the husband has no idea how to do it and the wife can be honest about it, then I don't see a problem with it. Remember the CEO (Chief Executive Officer) and CFO (Chief Financieal Officer) are generally two separate positions in most biger companies and the CEO is over the CFO.

[color=#0000FF][i]7. Women voting thread participants, where does the Bible say it is wrong for a woman to vote?[/i][/color]

As in, in elections? I see a problem in that women tend to personalize issues and see things in terms of emotions and individuals. Since women got the vote we've have more and more social programs voted in, turning our nation from a thriving capitalist society to more of a socialist oligarchy. Unfortunately, I see women voting as a major factor in that. That's not the sole cause. the depression led many to choose socialism as a short term solution that brought long term problems. We've also have a strong movement to remove morality (religion) form the political arena, which has removed the concept of stealing as wrong, which helps pave the way for even more socialism.

But as far as scripture, I don't think there is any passage specifically precluding it.

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