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wrong faith


flaja

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[quote="flaja"]You can document statistics for ?most? Pentecostals?[/quote]

It's called research - I know where Pentecostals have stood on some of their main doctrines historically. No, I cannot speak for each individual Pentecostal, the same way I can't speak for each individual Baptist - but if they stand where Pentecostals have stood for the last 100 years, then I can get a general idea what they believe - and historically, many of them believe salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Which is the truth according to the Scriptures. That doesn't justify their wrong doctrine - but it also doesn't make them unsaved - GOD GUIDES HIS CHILDREN INTO THE TRUTH. You can't expect a lost person, who doesn't understand the Bible, to be completely right on in all their doctrine. When they get saved, as they get into the Word and apply it, then they will sort out their doctrine as they are led by the Lord.

[quote]Where I live we have hundreds and hundreds of Pentecostal churches and most of them either accept or have women as pastor or co-pastors in direct contradiction to what Paul told the Corinthians about women keeping silent in church. How can these people be saved if they follow an un-Biblical doctrine?

Also, I have never known more than 2 Pentecostals (my elderly friend and her late husband) that were King James only, but even they were both willing to go to non-King James only churches. They were both willing to fellowship with people who used Bibles that said Jesus is not God. Can such Pentecostals legitimately have salvation?[/quote]

It is not standards nor Bible versions that save a person - it is faith in Jesus Christ (and yes, built on the right foundation).

[quote]And then they otherwise follow un-Godly doctrines. Some salvation.[/quote]

Wow! From the mouth of the person with the wacked out ungodly doctrine of Anglo-Israelism. ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE SAVED? According to your view, a Christian can't have any faulty doctrines...

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[quote="kevinmiller"]You can't be saved and use different versions of the Bible? :uuhm:[/quote]

If your Bible says that Jesus isn?t God, wasn?t born of a Virgin or that He had origins, then you are not saved because you don?t have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

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[quote="Jerry"]and historically, many of them believe salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.[/quote]

But what Jesus do they believe in? If their Jesus isn?t the Jesus of the Bible, then they have no saving faith in Jesus at all.

[quote]That doesn't justify their wrong doctrine - but it also doesn't make them unsaved[/quote]

You can be saved with unsound doctrine? What fantasy world do you live in?

[quote]You can't expect a lost person, who doesn't understand the Bible, to be completely right on in all their doctrine.[/quote]

So the Pentecostals that you are so fond of are not completely right on all of their doctrine and thus don?t understand the Bible and thus are still lost.

[quote]It is not standards nor Bible versions that save a person - it is faith in Jesus Christ (and yes, built on the right foundation).[/quote]

But what standard tells you who Jesus Christ is? How do you verify that the Jesus you believe in is not one of the false Christs that Jesus warned us about?

[quote][quote]And then they otherwise follow un-Godly doctrines. Some salvation.[/quote]

Wow! From the mouth of the person with the wacked out ungodly doctrine of Anglo-Israelism.[/quote]

You have yet to present me with any proof from the Bible that Anglo-Israelism is wrong. But at any rate I don?t see how the fate and destiny of the lost tribes of Israel has anything to do with the process of salvation by faith in Christ.

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[quote="flaja"]If your Bible says that Jesus isn?t God, wasn?t born of a Virgin or that He had origins, then you are not saved because you don?t have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Actually, that's not true.

For one, most Bible versions DOWNPLAY the doctrines of Christ, they do not completely remove them.

2) Having a particular version is not the same thing as believing all that that version says or doesn't say. I got led to Christ and given a Living Bible, within a month I got an NIV, a year later an NASV, took me four years of reading and studying the NASV before I was faced with the issue of Bible versions, then I became KJVonly. You have to read, study, and apply whatever version before you can say you believe what that version teaches.

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[quote="Jerry"][quote="flaja"]If your Bible says that Jesus isn?t God, wasn?t born of a Virgin or that He had origins, then you are not saved because you don?t have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Actually, that's not true.

For one, most Bible versions DOWNPLAY the doctrines of Christ, they do not completely remove them.

2) Having a particular version is not the same thing as believing all that that version says or doesn't say. I got led to Christ and given a Living Bible, within a month I got an NIV, a year later an NASV, took me four years of reading and studying the NASV before I was faced with the issue of Bible versions, then I became KJVonly. You have to read, study, and apply whatever version before you can say you believe what that version teaches.[/quote]
Good answer. :thumb

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Flaja, do you mind not twisting what I have been saying. Read your Bible - there were true believers in the NT churches that had wrong doctrine, and they needed to be corrected. But they were still true believers. No, it doesn't make their wrong doctrine okay - but God also gives us time to grow and learn the truth too - and that comes AFTER salvation, not before - no one can understand the truth, and completely separate right from wrong doctrine, until the are saved and have the Holy Spirit opening up the Word of God to them.

There is a big difference between being wrong on foundational doctrines (ie. the fundamentals of the faith: such as how to be saved, who Jesus is, His blood shed and complete atonement, the Trinity, etc.) and being wrong on other doctrines (such as baptism, end times, etc.).

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[quote="Jerry"][quote="flaja"]If your Bible says that Jesus isn?t God, wasn?t born of a Virgin or that He had origins, then you are not saved because you don?t have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Actually, that's not true.

For one, most Bible versions DOWNPLAY the doctrines of Christ, they do not completely remove them.[/quote]

The least bit of doubt cast by a single verse is enough to destroy an entire version of the Bible. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. There is no such thing as being a little heretical.

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[quote="kevinmiller"][quote="Jerry"][quote="flaja"]If your Bible says that Jesus isn?t God, wasn?t born of a Virgin or that He had origins, then you are not saved because you don?t have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Actually, that's not true.

For one, most Bible versions DOWNPLAY the doctrines of Christ, they do not completely remove them.

2) Having a particular version is not the same thing as believing all that that version says or doesn't say. I got led to Christ and given a Living Bible, within a month I got an NIV, a year later an NASV, took me four years of reading and studying the NASV before I was faced with the issue of Bible versions, then I became KJVonly. You have to read, study, and apply whatever version before you can say you believe what that version teaches.[/quote]
Good answer. :thumb[/quote]

But the wrong answer, nethertheless.

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[quote="Jerry"][quote="flaja"]If your Bible says that Jesus isn?t God, wasn?t born of a Virgin or that He had origins, then you are not saved because you don?t have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Actually, that's not true.

For one, most Bible versions DOWNPLAY the doctrines of Christ, they do not completely remove them.

2) Having a particular version is not the same thing as believing all that that version says or doesn't say. I got led to Christ and given a Living Bible, within a month I got an NIV, a year later an NASV, took me four years of reading and studying the NASV before I was faced with the issue of Bible versions, then I became KJVonly. You have to read, study, and apply whatever version before you can say you believe what that version teaches.[/quote]
Excellent response!

Like you, Jerry, I was given a Living Bible after I got saved. I also was involved in a Bible study using Good News for Modern Man. I also used the NASB and NKJV. I never did like the NIV--although I had one, but never really used it. In 1976, two years after I was saved, I bought myself a KJV Open Bible (Thomas Nelson Publishers)--which I still have (it's falling apart, but I have some really good notes in there). I used the NASB and NKJV for a long time (about 6 years) before I was faced with the Bible version issue. It wasn't until 1999 that I became KJV only. I did my own personal study of Bible versions and it was through the ministries of David Cloud and the Fundamental Evangelistic Association that I did become KJV only.

Was I still saved during that time? Flaja seems to say NO--but God says YES. I'll stick with what God says. When I put my faith and trust in the finished work of the LORD Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary in 1974, I became His child and I KNOW He saved my soul. I didn't lose my salvation because I was using a different version than the KJV--I was ignorant of such an issue.

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I'm not saying that all pentacostals are not saved. Most of the Pentacostals I have encountered, say they believe in salvation by grace through faith. But they also believe that one can lose their salvation. Basicly, it seems they are really trusting in their own works to save them because they must make sure they have no unconfessed sin before death. This doesn't seem like trusting in the finished work of Calvary to me.

Maybe it's salvation plus works?

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