Gog and Magog

[Bakershalfdozen]

Sorry - you think what specifically is literal? Ezekiel 38-39' date=' Revelation 19, Gog and Magog? I believe all these passages are literal too. [/quote']

Jim was referring to my question about bows, arrows and horses. Literal or depicting weapons and conveyances?

[pneu-engine]

That's right. :thumb

Also, so many times I have heard Bible teachers tell us that the Trib begins immediately following the Rapture. I don't think so. My thinking goes like this:::::::

#1. Rapture::: imminent, and due at any moment.

#2. Period of confusion of unknown duration::::: the whole wide world is in somewhat of a chaotic state since the Holy Spirit steps back out of the way from preventing sin from going too far, as He is doing now. It is during this period that Russia sets out to wage war on Israel. Russia wants the Dead Sea for the fertilizer-minerals, gold, and other precious metals dissolved in it. From what I read the Dead Sea is a veritable gold mine.

#3. A supreme "answer-man" is found that can right all the wrongs and solve all the world's problems. The world accepts him but little realizes that this is the Anti-Christ. Even if they do know, they care not one iota. When this Antichrist is brought forth the tribulation begins.

I have to go dig up my notes and things. :Green

[Bakershalfdozen]

I always thought so too but then I wondered how it fit the "peace and safety" scenario.

[Bakershalfdozen]

BTW, I believe the bows, arrows and horses are literal also. It will be interesting to see how that comes to pass.

[Madeline]

That's right. :thumb

Also, so many times I have heard Bible teachers tell us that the Trib begins immediately following the Rapture. I don't think so. My thinking goes like this:::::::

#1. Rapture::: imminent, and due at any moment.

#2. Period of confusion of unknown duration::::: the whole wide world is in somewhat of a chaotic state since the Holy Spirit steps back out of the way from preventing sin from going too far, as He is doing now. It is during this period that Russia sets out to wage war on Israel. Russia wants the Dead Sea for the fertilizer-minerals, gold, and other precious metals dissolved in it. From what I read the Dead Sea is a veritable gold mine.

#3. A supreme "answer-man" is found that can right all the wrongs and solve all the world's problems. The world accepts him but little realizes that this is the Anti-Christ. Even if they do know, they care not one iota. When this Antichrist is brought forth the tribulation begins.

I have to go dig up my notes and things. :Green

I don't agree with anything except that the rapture will occur after the tribulation. My reasons are:

1) We read in Rev. 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The "hour of temptation" is of course, the tribulation. The question is, how will those who have patiently endured be kept from the tribulation.

We read in Rev. 12:6, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." Also Rev. 12:13-14, "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." In my opinion, these passages answers the question of how believers will be kept from the tribulation. They will escape to "the place prepared for them".

Why would a place of escape from the tribulation be prepared if believers will be raptured before the tribulation?

2) Matthew 24:15-20, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:" The reason for all this is given in the next verse (verse 21) which reads, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Why would our Lord tell His disciples to flee when the tribulation begins if they were going to be raptured before it?

3) 1 Thess. 4:15-17, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air
?".

When taken at face value, it is clear that Paul is saying that the rapture occurs at the time of the coming of Christ in the clouds. The second coming of Christ is after the tribulation, and therefore, the rapture, which occurs at His coming, is also after the tribulation. Btw, I'm no prophecy expert so go easy on me. :lol

I am soooo looking forward to the rebuttals!

Love,
Madeline

[Bakershalfdozen]

1) The woman is Israel, not the church. The place prepared is for Israel.

2) As you are so fond of pointing out, :Green to whom was the discourse given? Also the Lord mentioned Daniel's prophecy. This is given to the Jews and the messenger told Daniel that the prophecy was determined upon his people and upon the Holy City (Jerusalem). This time is also called, "The time of Jacob's trouble". These are all Jewish references and have nothing to do with the Bride of Christ.

3) When taken at face value, it says that during the rapture the believers will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. At the 2nd coming Jesus will touch down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in half. Also, Enoch prophesied and Revelation mentions that Jesus will be coming back with 10 thousands of His saints.

[Jerry]

I believe those passages are to be taken literally. I offer this as a possible modern day fulfillment, which takes into account the definition of the word used.

The definition of the Hebrew word is "from 2686; properly, a piercer, i.e. an arrow; by implication, a wound; figuratively, (of God) thunder-bolt; (by interchange for 6086) the shaft of a spear."

2686 means "properly, to chop into, pierce or sever; hence, to curtail, to distribute (into ranks); as denom. from 2671, to shoot an arrow."

The "arrows" could be missiles - ie. something shot by man, that pierces through men, armour, tanks, etc.

This is the definition of the word for bow: "from 7185 in the original sense (of 6983) of bending: a bow, for shooting (hence, figuratively, strength) or the iris."

I believes these weapons are real - missiles and missile launchers could still fit the description, as the weapon that is shot and what is used to shoot it out.

[Madeline]

1) The woman is Israel, not the church. The place prepared is for Israel.

2) As you are so fond of pointing out, :Green to whom was the discourse given? Also the Lord mentioned Daniel's prophecy. This is given to the Jews and the messenger told Daniel that the prophecy was determined upon his people and upon the Holy City (Jerusalem). This time is also called, "The time of Jacob's trouble". These are all Jewish references and have nothing to do with the Bride of Christ.

3) When taken at face value, it says that during the rapture the believers will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. At the 2nd coming Jesus will touch down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in half. Also, Enoch prophesied and Revelation mentions that Jesus will be coming back with 10 thousands of His saints.

Hi,

Many thanks for responding, Jess. :smile

Yes, indeed, the woman is Israel and the Lord was talking to Israel. I don't understand the point of number three, but I will comment on the first two. :tum

Rev. 3:10 reads, ".....I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth".

The Greek word translated "try" means "test". So this is obviously in reference to the tribulation.

The Greek word translated "world" is oikomenee". It is from the verb oikeo, which means "to dwell". It is always used in the Bible in reference to the Roman empire, never of the entire earth.

The Greek word translated "earth" is "ge". It is used of the earth and it is also used of a specific land, i.e. Israel. Obviously, since the testing will be only in part of the earth (i.e. the oikoumenee), in this verse "ge" cannot refer to the entire earth, and must therefore refer to the land that will be tested, i.e.Israel.

Let's consider what we do agree on. We agree that Israel will be provided a safe place, and we agree that Christ warned Israel to flee. If the tribulation is to cover the entire earth why wouldn't the same protection be afforded the entire earth?

Consider also that Revelation is the most Israel centered book in the NT. It is that book that tells us the most about the tribulation. It doesn't make sense to apply it to the entire world. I look forward to your reply.

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

The Greek word translated "world" is oikomenee". It is from the verb oikeo, which means "to dwell". It is always used in the Bible in reference to the Roman empire, never of the entire earth.

Strong's does not say it ONLY refers to the Roman empire, but "specially, the Roman empire." The three times the word is used in the book of Revelation, it refers to the whole world. This word is where we get our English word "ecumenical." The tribulation period is a time of testing for the whole world - whether they will choose Christ or the Antichrist, truth or lies.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

[Jerry]

Christ doesn't tell Israel to flee, He tells those who are in Jerusalem to flee. Why? Because that is when the Antichrist is defiling the temple, destroying Jerusalem and starting to slaughter the Jews in that area.

[Bakershalfdozen]

How much of the earth did the Roman Empire cover? It wasn't limited to Italy and Israel. Rome controlled all of the known world at the time. So all the world means all the world. I doubt North & South America will be exempt.

"ge" can mean a region but it can also mean the entire globe and the inhabitants thereof. You are deducing that "earth" means Israel because you believe "world" to be referring only to the Roman Empire, meaning one section.

All means all. :thumb

[Madeline]

Thanks for your reply! :smile

To begin with....let's not go by Strong's, let's go by how the word is used by the Holy Spirit, and let's use logic.

Acts 17:24-31 is an excellent example of how the Holy Spirit uses precisely the word He wants that best conveys His meaning. Verse 24 reads, "?God that made the world (kosmos), and verse 26 reads, "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth (cosmos)". But in verse 31 we read, "He will judge the world (oikoumenee) in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained" It is clear that the Holy Spirit makes a distinction between "oikoumenee" and "kosmos". The "kosmos" was created by God, and man will inhabit the "kosmos", but God will judge the "oikoumenee", the inhabited world.

The point is this: we are speaking of the Word of God here. This passage makes it clear that the Holy Spirit uses oikoumenee and kosmos to denote two different things. The kosmos is the world, and the oikoumenee is the inhabited world. Let's not Strong's tell us differently without any scriptural evidence.

As for the three quotes from Rev, there is absolutely nothing in any of those passages that suggests that a portion of the world was not intended by the word "oikoumenee". The word is used of a portion of the world, and the root of the word means "to dwell, i.e. the inhabited world.

How much of the earth did the Roman Empire cover

How much of the earth did the Roman Empire cover? It wasn't limited to Italy and Israel. Rome controlled all of the known world at the time. So all the world means all the world. I doubt North & South America will be exempt.

Do you see the contradiction here? First you wrote that the Roman empire covered "the known world at that time', and I agree. But then you wrote that "all the world means all the world". The Roman empire did not cover the entire world, it covered the known world at that time. And that is exaclty how the Holy spirit used the word "oikounemee", i.e. to indicate the known world at that time.

And you have not addressed my original questions. If the tribulation is going to be world wide, why isn't there a safe place for everyone in the world? And if it's worldwide why bother to flee outside of Jerusalem? And let me add one more question, if the tribulation is going to be world wide, why is it called "Jacob's trouble"? hmmm...

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

So what's your point? All the known world in our day would be ALL the whole world. The context of the words usage in Revelation indicates that the whole world is in view - all the world will be gathered together against the Lord in the battle of Armageddon.

[Jerry]

Read the book of Revelation - the Antichrist rules the whole world, Babylon influences and corrupts the whole world, the false prophet deceives the whole world. The Antichrist fights against ALL of God's people during that time. The Jews who flee are protected, so the Devil cannot harm them. He gets even more angry and then goes on a rampage against the rest of God's people all over the world.

[pneu-engine]

I always thought so too but then I wondered how it fit the "peace and safety" scenario.

It's by comparison::::::

Immediately after the Rapture the whole wide world is in somewhat of a chaotic state, but the Antichrist comes on as the supreme "answer-man" and promises peace and safety so convincingly that everyone fully believes him. He is the ultimate politician. He'll promise the moon and won't even deliver any moon-dust. Little do they realize that he has a hidden agenda.