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2 Cor. 5:12


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2Co 5:12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

I heard a message today on this verse. The preacher stated that IFB'ers are often more concerned with outward appearance than the heart which I would typically tend to agree with. However his application was that we shouldn't judge people by their outward appearance. It doesn't really matter what music we listen to or how we dress as long as our heart is right.

What I would like to know is what do you think this verse means.

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PastorJ,

It would seem that at times humble men of God are placed in a position where it is expedient to let people know, in small measure, what they have done for Christ. These events under most circumstances would have remained unheard of.

Allow me to give an illustration, recently there was a little bit to do in our congregation that involved what our ministerial staff makes (financially). This was brought about by a couple of people who felt our pastoral staff was over paid (they are not). Our pastor handled it so very tactfully during our stewardship month that I wanted to hug him for his wisdom. Without giving the congregation any set financial figures he (during our stewardship banquet) showed that the ministerial staff gives out of their income an average 31% back to the house of God and he also let the church know that he had taken a 5000.00 dollar per year cut in salary and that it would cap a 8,000.00 at the end of 3 years here is the kicker he initiated the salary cut 2008 and not 09. None of the above information would have been made public but he allowed part of it to go public in order to give our congregation fuel for rebuttal to those who were complaining.

Paul in my opinion is doing the same thing and in verse 12 he is in large measure giving a small record of his spiritual accomplishments in order to put to silence those who are using their vain appearances to challenge the real work for Christ being done in the church.

orvals

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That is exactly my understanding. What was preached was that as long as the heart is right with God, it doesn't matter where we stand on music, dress, and all of the other "external" issues.

Made me mad. I am still stewing over this one.

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I don't know a lot, but, if I heard a preacher in a church say that the music we listen to, or what we look like, or where we go, or how we treat others doesn't matter, as long as the heart is right with God, then I would not go to that church any more! This country has far far too many preachers like that these days. CJP56

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The LORD cares if we dress modestly, listen to the worlds music etc. because we are His children but then as His child we want to do those things. Isn't that right? So I've always thought if someone in church is always pushing everything to the very edge then they may not be saved-is that heartless?

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I guess I am old fashioned; I believe that the outer appearance shows the inner beliefs. Of course, none of us can look upon the heart of another, but we can discern certain things by the outer appearance. In a sense, even the hypocrite knows this, because he attempts to "look the part" as well as act the part, to be accepted.

Our outer appearance is important, that may be why the Lord spent so much of the O.T. scripture describing how the priests should dress, etc. I don't think there was much of a problem in biblical times as to clothing, because they all knew what modesty was, and that it was expected of them without a lot of coercing. To make a ststement that "it doesn't matter" and to say that IFB's look more on the outer appearnce is not a wise statement. How can they know if another is looking at the heart as revealed by the outer appearance? Maybe outer appearances are stressed more because they have gotten so out of hand, and need the extra attention. I have heard many use that argument in discussions pertaining to dress and standards, but if it didn't matter, then we have anarchy.

Even judges, (though I am quite sure that few would admit it) make certain "lifestyle" judgments according to the appearance of the person before them. I know it is true with employers, though they probably would not admit it either, for the sake of worldly "Propriety". Notice that, many times, even an unsaved man will dress up fopr an interview. "First impression" and all taken into account.

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Some IFBs focus upon outward appearance without taking the time to work on new or weak believers hearts. There are times when a new convert is basically given a list of do's and don'ts (wear your hair this way, not like that; buy these clothes and get rid of those; don't use these words, don't be seen in this place, etc.) instead of being discipled and teaching these outward things in the process of discipling them.

At the same time, there are even now some preachers within IFB who are teaching the idea that one can be saved and never show any signs of being saved. They claim one can be saved and then live the next 40 years basically the same as they lived their first 40 years. I don't see this in Scripture. Scripture is very clear that when one is born again they experience a new birth, things become new, and the Holy Ghost works within believers to further transform them from their old nature to growth in Christlikeness.

Likely as not, it won't be that much longer whe the term IFB no longer holds the meaning most of us think of for such. Just as the world has infiltrated other churches, it's happening among IFB too. As I've mentioned before, we have IFB churches in this area that have dropped the KJB, dropped most hymns, dropped dress standards, and have joined hands even with Catholic churches for joint endeavors.

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When someone get's saved and taught dress standards first-- before teaching them their position in Christ, that Jesus is God, they don't produce the fruit but must just abide in Christ and He produces the fruit , that the Holy Spirit lives within them, that we're nOT under the Law but under Grace, the Law was our schoolmaster, etc. etc. I am just crazy!! The Holy Spirit will change the outside appearance!!! When people have repentance, confess their sins and walk in Christ because they are His Children now and nOT The Children of Wrath anymore. NOT taught to stop crawling around with the larva on the ground and fly like the new creature He has made you--a beautiful butterfly is how I've read it explained. Bible doctrine is important!! Yes--we must have standards but to nOT be taught the LORD"s Word first--this is how many are lead astray. This is how cult's come to the door and confuse people--yes even Baptist!! First off--men know your Bibles!! Secondly, Women know your Bibles!!! Do nOT be lead astray because you we'ren't taught!! I've heard--I don't have time to study--YOU CANN"T AFFORD NOT TO FIND THE TIME!!! HIS WORD is powerful--NOT OURS!! When hearts are changed--lives change!! Your standard's change without anyone having to tell you!! Fruit is produced just because you love the LORD soo much you cann't help but abide in Him--HIS WORD!! Has this happen to you ?? If nOT ask yourself what did? Only outward appearance? Or a real dependance on the LORD where you cann't get enough of His Word? His desires are your desires or are they only your desires covered by looking moral so you fit in? Kind of the difference between knowing if you have a cold or the flu. Once you have the Holy Spirit living INSIDE of you, once your forgiven and desire to serve Him above all else---then you know that you know you are His Child bought with a price never ever to be taken for granted!!!! I only mean this in Chrit's love...please really question yourself if you haven't experienced this life I'm speaking about. Life is too short and way too difficult without Him --that's nOT even mentioning eternity!! Only said out of true concern! In Christ love may He call you to Himself if none of this make's since to you. He's waiting for you ! For whosoever means all of us!! Yes-that's you!

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When someone get's saved and taught dress standards first-- before teaching them their position in Christ, that Jesus is God, they don't produce the fruit but must just abide in Christ and He produces the fruit , that the Holy Spirit lives within them, that we're nOT under the Law but under Grace, the Law was our schoolmaster, etc. etc. I am just crazy!! The Holy Spirit will change the outside appearance!!! When people have repentance, confess their sins and walk in Christ because they are His Children now and nOT The Children of Wrath anymore. NOT taught to stop crawling around with the larva on the ground and fly like the new creature He has made you--a beautiful butterfly is how I've read it explained. Bible doctrine is important!! Yes--we must have standards but to nOT be taught the LORD"s Word first--this is how many are lead astray. This is how cult's come to the door and confuse people--yes even Baptist!! First off--men know your Bibles!! Secondly, Women know your Bibles!!! Do nOT be lead astray because you we'ren't taught!! I've heard--I don't have time to study--YOU CANN"T AFFORD NOT TO FIND THE TIME!!! HIS WORD is powerful--NOT OURS!! When hearts are changed--lives change!! Your standard's change without anyone having to tell you!! Fruit is produced just because you love the LORD soo much you cann't help but abide in Him--HIS WORD!! Has this happen to you ?? If nOT ask yourself what did? Only outward appearance? Or a real dependance on the LORD where you cann't get enough of His Word? His desires are your desires or are they only your desires covered by looking moral so you fit in? Kind of the difference between knowing if you have a cold or the flu. Once you have the Holy Spirit living INSIDE of you, once your forgiven and desire to serve Him above all else---then you know that you know you are His Child bought with a price never ever to be taken for granted!!!! I only mean this in Chrit's love...please really question yourself if you haven't experienced this life I'm speaking about. Life is too short and way too difficult without Him --that's nOT even mentioning eternity!! Only said out of true concern! In Christ love may He call you to Himself if none of this make's since to you. He's waiting for you ! For whosoever means all of us!! Yes-that's you!


:amen:

How we spend our time shows where our priorities are. Do we really seek His kingdom first? Do we really strive to abide in Him? Do we really seek to grow in Christ, to pursue holiness, to draw close to Him?

So many professing Christians do indeed claim they have no time to read the Word or to study the Word or to pray. Meanwhile, they have the time to watch hours of sports and OTher programs on TV each week. They find the time to read their favorite newspaper or magazine. They manage to find the time to entertain themselves. Which one of those is more important than getting close to the Lord?

We all have the same amount of time each day. While we each have different things going on in our lives, we each have 24 hours a day and we know God wouldn't command us to be in His Word if such were nOT possible.
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That is exactly my understanding. What was preached was that as long as the heart is right with God, it doesn't matter where we stand on music, dress, and all of the OTher "external" issues.

Made me mad. I am still stewing over this one.

There is nOThing wrong with holding "traditions" as Paul exhorts in II Thess. 2:15 . But mature Christians should exercise restraint and a little self denying of satisfaction and gratification won't hurt. Paul's exhortation in Romans 14 is very clear on the "externals."

So, I suppose there are more times than nOT when we should "bridleth" our tongue as James puts it. Let young Christians discover worship of God in spirit and in truth (grow) without injecting our personal preference.

However, exhort them to discover the true worship of God through Bible reading and regular church attendance. I'm against bringing all the wide variety of worldly EXTREME into a congregation.

When in Romans do as the pillars of the congregation do. Don't we teach etiquette for all OTher social events in the world and gasp when someone strays outside of those? It won't harm a new Christian to be told to restrain and refrain from distraction action too, but be prepared to explain it Biblically.
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If the heart is changed, the change will show all the way from inside the heart to the outside of the body.

The most popular statement for our liberal brOThers & sister in Christ on most issues is that, "It makes no difference." Perhaps many of them have nOT been changed.

But this pastor sounds like on who fears to take a stand for fear of some being offended and leaving and or the church might want him to leave.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will nOT endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

This time is upon us.

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