"Gone liberal" - a complete package?

[Guest Guest]

Oh ok.. I was just making sure you weren't judging her. :lol She probably will never read this topic cuz she never gets online except for email (her family has dialup :Bleh ).

hmm.. I kinda forgot the real reason this topic was started now. :saint

[MilkmanDan]

:back:

How do you define the term "gone liberal"? What is a "liberal christian"?

I think this is dangerous ground.

I can only speak from what i have seen in the Bible.

Main Entry:
1lib

[John81]

If what they are doing or teaching is obviously contrary to clear biblical doctrine, then one would be safe to say they are "gone liberal".

Problems come about when dealing with issues not clearly or directly defined or laid out in Scripture.

Scripture doesn't mention directly the aspec of pants on women (as has been noted here), nor does it directly mention various aspects of music, lengths of hair, etc. Even so, many Christians are divided over these issues, and like issues, with some claiming others are liberal or they are legalistic or Phariseeical, walking in sin, etc.

Can a woman have her hair cut like a pixie and not be considered on the liberal side? Can a man have his hair longer than the other men in the church and not be viewed as liberal? What about a woman wearing pants or a true Scotsman wearing a kilt? How about a guitar in church?

[Guest Guest]

Problems come about when dealing with issues not clearly or directly defined or laid out in Scripture.

Scripture doesn't mention directly the aspec of pants on women (as has been noted here), nor does it directly mention various aspects of music, lengths of hair, etc. Even so, many Christians are divided over these issues, and like issues, with some claiming others are liberal or they are legalistic or Phariseeical, walking in sin, etc.

Can a woman have her hair cut like a pixie and not be considered on the liberal side? Can a man have his hair longer than the other men in the church and not be viewed as liberal? What about a woman wearing pants or a true Scotsman wearing a kilt? How about a guitar in church?

If Christians were Godly enough to take this attitude the problems these issues cause would disappear.

"1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."

Now regardless of your point of view on women in pants or short hair, borderline "Christian" music etc. We all know that in just about any IFB church somewhere between a few and most of the people will view these things as wrong and offensive. Since I have never met anyone that believes women in long modest dresses, women with long hair, ect. is wrong why not err on the side of caution regardless of your beliefs?

[Guest Guest]

I agree that if you know someone has a higher standard than you on something, then you should be careful not to offend that person whenever you know they're going to be around...

For example, if someone believes it's wrong for a girl to wear culottes because they're "too close to being pants", but I don't have that conviction, I still wouldn't wear anything close to what that person would be offended by. I'd probably wear an ankle-length skirt around them just to be careful... :Bleh

It's kinda the same way even with the music thing... someone on another topic said something about Christian music that sounds too similar to "country", even if it doesn't have a bad beat or anything. If I knew someone didn't like "bluegrass" Christian music, or anything like that, I wouldn't play it around them.

Those are just issues that some may consider "minor", while others may think they're MAJOR issues... (I think if you're making a major issue out of the way someone's dressed, unless they're showing too much skin or wearing extremely tight clothing, you need a hobby :lol )

A lot of issues are things we should figure out for ourselves.. develop personal standards and convictions, and just be careful not to offend others. Likewise, those who hold to higher standards shouldn't be easily offended if someone else doesn't hold to the same standards.

"Great peace have they which love thy law, and nothing shall offend them." :wink

[kevinmiller]

I don't really see the point of erring on the side of caution. We should, instead, work to find the balance and do what we believe is right. And I do believe in deference, but I don't believe in going overboard to accommodate people's pet issues either. For example, if someone believes that a woman ought to be in a skirt down to her ankles, nothing in her hair, and a shirt buttoned to her neck, and I'm taking my wife over for an event, I would tell my wife to wear whatever she felt comfortable with. I, for one, don't want to see my wife covered up in a sack with her eyes sticking out, regardless of what anyone else thinks. :bonK:

[Guest Guest]

I don't really see the point of erring on the side of caution. We should' date=' instead, work to find the balance and do what we believe is right. And I do believe in deference, but I don't believe in going overboard to accommodate people's pet issues either. For example, if someone believes that a woman ought to be in a skirt down to her ankles, nothing in her hair, and a shirt buttoned to her neck, and I'm taking my wife over for an event, I'm would tell my wife to wear whatever she felt comfortable with. I, for one, don't want to see my wife covered up in a sack with her eyes sticking out, regardless of what anyone else thinks. [/quote']

lol you're right... that's definitely an extreme view (and some people do have "standards" like that...). We do need to find a balance and determine what we believe on issues. Sometimes it's going to cause disagreements, especially since almost no two IFBs have the same exact standards on EVERYTHING. I think the main thing is still whether a person really has the right attitude and loves the Lord... who cares if another Christian isn't perfect on standards (I'm not saying it's ok to have absolutely no convictions, either), what matters is what's on the inside.

[John81]

Kathie and Kevin, you both bring up an important aspect.

What determines whether ones beliefs are a "higher standard" than anothers or whether they are simply being legalistic, trying to be 'holier than thou', or just plain wrong in their application of the issue?

Should a woman with shoulder length hair feel that her standards are lower than the woman with waist length hair? If one church believes no instruments or only an organ or piano are appropriate for church does that mean all churches who use other instruments have lower standards?

[pneu-engine]

I've heard talk of people "going liberal" or something like that. I've also heard people talk about those who go liberal and that soon everything else in their lives will slide because they've "gone liberal". For instance, when a person/church/group goes off using modern versions, then some will think it's a given that they will eventually all be pant-wearing(women), rock-n-rolling, new-evangelicals. Or some may think that if the women start wearing pants, either a divorce or church split is sure enough in the works and that the church has "gone liberal".

However, this is not how I've seen things in the USA, and we've been to lots of churches. Some are using the KJB, and all the women have dresses to their ankles, but their music standards are very low and the church is full of selfish gossips. Some don't use the KJB exclusively, but the music standards are very high and they're all about fervently serving God. And in other churches, the women are in pants, but in everything else they've got real high standards, and they use the KJB.

I'm not really sure what my point is in this. I know some people on this forum have been labeled liberal before, but on the other hand, I know those very people have very high standards. How do you define the term "gone liberal"? What is a "liberal christian"?

We have to understand that Satan is behind any and all compromise. He is very patient and has been at his "program" that we call the "Mystery of Iniquity" for about 6,000 years. I'm almost older'n dirt and have seen soooooooooooooo many churches go downhill that used to be rock-solid way back in the late 50s, 60s, and early 70s. Then along came the MVs and CCM in the late 60s and early 70s. It used to be that if you knew of a church with the word "Bible" as their middle name, then that was a good church. However, it is so bad now that I cannot find one bible Church like that anymore that will take an absolute stand against the MVs. I'm not saying there are none, I just cannot find any. :sad

[Guest Guest]

Kathie and Kevin, you both bring up an important aspect.

What determines whether ones beliefs are a "higher standard" than anothers or whether they are simply being legalistic, trying to be 'holier than thou', or just plain wrong in their application of the issue?

Should a woman with shoulder length hair feel that her standards are lower than the woman with waist length hair? If one church believes no instruments or only an organ or piano are appropriate for church does that mean all churches who use other instruments have lower standards?

Wow... good questions. I could just say it's all relative... but that's too logical. :saint

Honestly, I don't believe we should be judgmental about stuff like that. We don't all know people and what they've been through and what their relationship with the Lord is. Like with the hair thing, a woman may have had cancer and went through chemo.. so she's lacking hair. Or maybe she just prefers to keep her hair shorter because it doesn't look good when it's down to her waist (I know a lot of girls and women that have thin hair, and it looks better shoulder-length).

About the instruments in church... it depends on how they're being used. If it's obviously being used to create a sensual "mood" and not to glorify God, then it's not right in church. Of course, some people may have different opinions on what's "right" and "wrong" in music styles... and that can be a sticky subject.

[kevinmiller]

I think we have the wrong focus altogether. Our focus shouldn't be standards at all. Standards are man-made attempts to live up to God's laws. I've been studying the 49 commands of Christ and I'm on command 40 this week, Love Thy Neighbor. The last command was Love the Lord Thy God.

And as I've been studying, I've been looking at verses like,
37

[pep_3000]

To start off with, I think that words such as liberal and conservative should be banned. (Ok, not banned.) Instead a person should say what is wrong with something. Often those words are an excuse for lazy thinking. Oh that is liberal and I am a conservative, therfore it is wrong and I don't even have to think about it. Kevin hit the nail right on the head. Christianity is not like some religions. It is not a list of rules and regulations. It has principles. The most important of these are Love God, and love you neighbor.

PEP

[Guest Guest]

Hey, you're totally right that we don't need to be focused on standards, Kevin. We should focus on our relationship with the Lord, and if we really do love Him, we will do what He wants us to do. :smile

Judging other Christians based on what they are or aren't doing for Christ or what standards they have or don't have is not something the Bible teaches us to do.

[Psalms18_28]

I think we have the wrong focus altogether. Our focus shouldn't be standards at all. Standards are man-made attempts to live up to God's laws. I've been studying the 49 commands of Christ and I'm on command 40 this week, Love Thy Neighbor. The last command was Love the Lord Thy God.

And as I've been studying, I've been looking at verses like,
37

[gatorpreacher]

..........in the 1964 Presidential Campaign, a member of the media asked, Republican Senator Barry Goldwater to explain exactly what is a liberal and what is a conservative? Senator Goldwater put it in the most simple of terms.....he said, let's look at the "public assistance" programs of the federal government for an example; a true conservative will look at that program and say "look how much good we can do for the American people with this program." and a true liberal will look at the same program, and say "look how much we can get out of it for us." Therein lies true liberalism; it is not isolated to any one group, church, religon, or political party. It is a "characteristic" and not a viewpoint. In general today, people are led to believe that it is a viewpoint, but this is not true. (what's in the well, comes up in the bucket).

In the IFB arena, this is the cause of more and more ministries, not rightly dividing the Word of Truth; example is the "judaeizing of the Church"; Although, most IFB shy away from "name it and claim it", they by their actions totally embrace such heresy. The Jews are God's people and the Church is the Bride of Christ....two completely seperate and accountable groups. The Church belongs to Christ and the Jews are God's chosen people. People, including leadership, that judaeize, are also people who lean towards, or trust in good works and "performance based" christianity. I know of one individual right now (IFB), who is consumed with "God's financial blessings" if you live right and follow Bible principals.....now I understand this categorically, however, did not Jesus himself, say,...."the poor you with you alway.."?

This person has totally strayed from our "great commission of spreading the Gospel and reaching the lost". It has been said that everything rises and falls on leadership; what every christian needs to understand, is that they are leading someone somewhere.

You are not a conservative, just because you go to a IFB church, you are conservative because it is a "born again" characteristic within you, sealed by the Holy Spirit. If you do not have this unselfish characteristic as part of your daily life, then you are not saved. Everything with God is either / or.......you can not be partly born, nor can you be partly saved. I had a churchmember tell me recently of the "deal" he got on a used truck that he had bought; he proceeded to tell me about the deal, a man had rebuilt the engine in the truck, but could not get it to run, so my friend went to look at it, as the man was frustrated and was selling it. He told me that right away, he saw that it was a minor problem that could be fixed for less than about twenty dollars. But, he said that he told the man that he could not give him much for it as he was not "real sure" as to what it would take to fix it. He bought the truck, and so called "praised God" for his blessing......Now in my viewpoint, I told the man this...."why didn't you help the man fix his truck and "open" the door for a real chance to witness to a lost man and maybe get to lead him to the Lord; instead you only thought of yourself........"

I know a lot of you will disagree wiith me, but God did not save me to be selfish, God proved the ultimate unselfishness when He died on the cross for our sins, and I do not brag about being unselfish, because in reality alot of times it hurts the flesh, but it is always the characteristic of God.

Love all of you out there.......examine yourself whether you have liberal or conservative imbedded in your character

gatorpreacher

incidently my gators lost yesterday, but they are still my gators....