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For every bad thing happening in a verse numbered 13 I can show many 13th verses where there are good things happening. In fact there are a whole lot more of them.

I know many people who make a whole cultish religion out of Biblical numerology. what always amuses me is how they force the numbers to mean various things. :lol::lol::lol:

kathie, I'm not saying you do this, but I know people that do.

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There are so many superstitions here in China. I'm to the point that if I have a choice, I'd like to use the "bad" numbers/days just to prove that those superstitions are meaningless. One time when we were allowed to choose a phone number, there were a bunch with the number 4 in them, and we chose the one with the most number 4's! (4 here sounds like the word death, so it's bad) Then, a few times my husband has been bargaining over something, and they don't want to settle on the number 250 because that number is bad luck. (because of some expression/story referring to an idiot or something..not sure of the meaning behind that one)

Also, there are good numbers - two of the main ones being 6 and 8. We see lots of 6's in multiple form here (often as 666 or 6666).

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I don't think the 13th day of a month is evil (except for in reference to a passage in Esther, where the 13th day evil was decided upon, and another 13th day was chosen as the execution of that evil deed**) - but the Bible does use the number 13 in various places to represent rebellion. Nimrod, who built the tower of Babel is the 13th generation from creation.

Genesis 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

Now, I don't make a big thing out of verse numbers, but I do find it interesting. Revelation 13 is where we see the world rebelling against God and receiving the mark of the beast. 2 Samuel 13 is where David's family fell apart and Absalom rebelled.

Mark 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

13 things, indicating the rebellion of the human heart - Matthew 15 shows 7 things, indicating the complete wickedness of our hearts apart from Christ.

1 Timothy 1:9-10 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

13 categories (assuming "murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers" is the same thing).

Some more:

Genesis 14:4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.

**Esther 3:12-13 Then were the king's scribes called on the thirteenth day of the first month, and there was written according to all that Haman had commanded unto the king's lieutenants, and to the governors that were over every province, and to the rulers of every people of every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language; in the name of king Ahasuerus was it written, and sealed with the king's ring. And the letters were sent by posts into all the king's provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to cause to perish, all Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day, even upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, and to take the spoil of them for a prey.

Kings of Judah: 7 good, 13 wicked.

Judges contains 12 judges - in a book dealing with the rebellion of the nation of Israel, ending on the note of apostasy. Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Barak, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson, Eli being the 13th, and Samuel the 14th (showing the complete reign of the Judges - just like Matthew shows 14 kings, 14 people in each section).

1 Kings 7:1 But Solomon was building his own house thirteen years, and he finished all his house.

Solomon took seven years to build the temple - and 13 to build his own house! To me, that indicates self-seeking, a heart that is now beginning to wander from the Lord.

These are all that come to mind right now - I would not interpret any passages a certain way based on a number used in them, but it is significant to note what numbers are associated with which events/passages in the Bible.


The verse numbers mean absolutely nothing. The New Testament ones were invented in the 16th century and the Hebrew ones are of not much greater antiquity. Also, some of the list included are different depending upon the text one prefers. There is no indication I can see in scripture that 13 was seen to be a significant number in any way. In Norse mythology it is a "lucky" number. This is a relatively modern superstition with no applicability to the Bible. Numerology in general is almost always way over-rated when it comes to scriptural applications. There are a very few significant numbers, and some cases where they do make a difference, but the sort of exercise here is pointless in the extreme and somewhat dangerous as well (to the extent that anyone start to put any stock in this method). Jewish "Cabalah" is very similar to this approach.

Love,
Madeline
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Your opinion - there are many sound believers of the faith that believe that numbers in the Bible are significant. And, no, it is not caballah - that is when you make the meaning of a passage change based on the numbers in it or the numbers of letters in a word. What I have done is show how the number is used in various places.

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Your opinion - there are many sound believers of the faith that believe that numbers in the Bible are significant. And' date=' no, it is not caballah - that is when you make the meaning of a passage change based on the numbers in it or the numbers of letters in a word. What I have done is show how the number is used in various places.[/quote']

First of all, I didn't say that numbers don't have any significance in the bible because there are numbers which do carry meanings (e.g., the number 7 and the # of the beast). And secondly, I didn't say it IS caballah but rather it's a "similar" approach. Having a fixation and putting too much emphasis on numbers can lead to an obsession and take our focus away from the Lord.
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First of all' date=' I didn't say that numbers don't have any significance in the bible because there are numbers which do carry meanings (e.g., the number 7 and the # of the beast). And secondly, I didn't say it IS caballah but rather it's a "similar" approach. Having a fixation and putting too much emphasis on numbers can lead to an obsession and take our focus away from the Lord.[/quote']

Noticing what numbers God has put in the Bible and how those numbers are used is not being fixated on it. And again, what I have presented has nothing similar whatsoever to caballah. I am not making a passage mean something based on a number - though I am seeing how numbers are used in certain contexts.

If I spent all my time studying out numbers, I would be fixated - however, if I notice them AS I am studying out various passages, that is not. Actually, if we refused to acknowledge what God has placed in His Word, we would be guilty of overlooking what He wanted us to see.
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You're twisting my words again... I had not written that you had developed a fixation, but rather having a fixation with numbers CAN lead to a morbid obsession which can sidetrack our focus in doing God's will. Jerry, not everyone is an "expert" in biblical numerology as you are, and you have to realise that such practises can stunt spiritual growth in those who are seeking to mature from the meat of the Word. Both Caballah and biblical numerology are similar to the extent that both practises assigns meanings to numbers.

Love,
Madeline
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I'm sorry - I was not attempting to twist anything, but to clarify what Biblical numerology is. Caballah involves reading between the lines in the Bible - making up meaning of Bible passages based on the number of letters in a word/name, or the number of words in a sentence - then taking those "conclusions" and forcing them into the passage. For example, teaching that circumcision was essential to salvation because in one passage where God spoke of His covenant, if the words are divided a certain way (and possibly given different vowels) they can spell circumcision; thereby "showing" their forced doctrine.

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I'm sorry - I was not attempting to twist anything' date=' but to clarify what Biblical numerology is. Caballah involves reading between the lines in the Bible - making up meaning of Bible passages based on the number of letters in a word/name, or the number of words in a sentence - then taking those "conclusions" and forcing them into the passage. For example, teaching that circumcision was essential to salvation because in one passage where God spoke of His covenant, if the words are divided a certain way (and possibly given different vowels) they can spell circumcision; thereby "showing" their forced doctrine.[/quote']

Ok, caballah is a bad comparison and I actually do believe that numbers are occasionally significant in the Bible - when and where there are biblical indications of the same. This is very rare, however. To use an analogy, one spoonful of honey may be beneficial, but 500 lbs. will kill you. And that doesn't mean that everything in-between is neither good nor bad. 10 lbs. may put you in the hospital. I don't see a single thing in the 13-list that I would consider biblically significant, but it is very clear that it took a long to time to collect and consider and argue for. All that time and effort could have been used to learn something real about scripture, whereas on the other hand convincing oneself of the importance in scripture of things that are not really there is a recipe for spiritual error. Investing meaning in passages where meaning does not exist may not be changing the meaning, but that is largely a difference without a true distinction. Either way, such things delude oneself and others, in the same that Cabalah is wont to do.

Love,
Madeline
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I don't see a single thing in the 13-list that I would consider biblically significant' date=' but it is very clear that it took a long to time to collect and consider and argue for. All that time and effort could have been used to learn something real about scripture, whereas on the other hand convincing oneself of the importance in scripture of things that are not really there is a recipe for spiritual error.[/quote']

Why is noticing how 13s are used in Scripture any less significant than noticing how sevens are used? Someone would have to be deliberate blind not to see the significance of sevens, from Genesis to Revelation - and we don't have to force anything to see the sevens and the patterns given. Ask Bakers for some of the sevens in John and Revelation - we had some neat threads on those. So why are other numbers not important. They are in the Bible - I do not spend time looking for them, but I notice numbers and types when I see them. 13 is not as significant as sevens, eights, tens, and some other numbers, but it is still there.

For example: Why did I notice the 13 in Mark 7? Because I saw there were seven things in Matthew 15, indicating the complete wickedness of man's heart. Why 13 in a parallel passage? So it stuck in my mind. Then I saw other passages where 13 was used - over time as I studied the Bible.

I am certainly not telling anyone to get fixated on any one part, theme, issue, book, etc. of the Bible. Just like people who get so caught up in the endtimes that they neglect the rest of the Bible, people can be unbalanced in their approach to the Word of God - the solution is to study the whole Bible - to be observant of all we see in the Scriptures as we are studying and reading it.
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Jerry, I thought I made it clear that I DO believe that numbers have some sort of significance (please read my previous posts). You asked "Why is noticing how 13s are used in Scripture any less significant than noticing how sevens are used?" then stated "it is not as significant as sevens, eights, tens, and some other numbers, but it is still there." So are 13's any more significant then 7's or not? Do you see where this is going? Putting too much emphasis on biblical numerology can take our attention away from learning some real truth about scripture. I'd rather swallow the meat of the word then waste my time with foolish and ignorant disputes.

Love,
Madeline

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My Mother was superstitious to a degree. If someone knocked over a salt shaker she would pick it up and throw some salt over her left shoulder. She always told us not to walk under ladders, open umbrellas in the house or break any mirrors. I always thought of these things as funny and not to be taken seriously. I guess black cats didn't count. We usually had any where from 1 to a dozen of them at any one time. CJP56

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I have a question in regard to this subject. Is it sinful to be superstitious? I know that there are some verses against witchcraft in the OT such as Nahum 3:4, 2Kings 9:22, Exodus 22:18 and some more, but honestly, I don't know in which category are superstitions, could it be evil imaginations?

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I would say it would be wrong to be fearful because of superstitions. I don't know what the definition of that word would be - but it is basically being controlled by fear based on falsehoods. God is in complete control - we can dig into His Word and find out what He says about the things that concern us; therefore there is no reason to be superstitious.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

MANY, many times in Scripture we are told to fear not. Probably every situation we could be faced with is addressed in Scripture, and we (ie. believers in Christ) are given the victory over all of them through God's promises.

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