God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation?

[hayesy]

In response to a request from the now 20-page John Piper thread, I thought we'd move some of the 'free-will vs predestination' discussion here.

Tons of stuff were flying around, but one key verse that a number of people were interested in discussing was 2 Thessalonians 2:13:

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

That will be the focus of this thread. I didn't have time to bring over any posts from either side of the discussion, so if anyone feels like doing that please do. It would also be helpful to have a list of the verses cited by each side.
I made a list of the 'predestination side during the last thread:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Corinthians 1:26-29; as well as 1 Thessalonians 1:4; Acts 13:48; Ephesians 1:4,5; Ephesians 1:11; Romans 11:5-8; Romans 9:18; Romans 9:21-22; Matthew 24:22,24,31; John 15:16; Romans 8:29-30; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; 2 Timothy 2:10; 2 Timothy 2:25-26; 1 Peter 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10.

If someone PM's me a list of the verses supporting free-will I'll add them here. Otherwise, I think the main ones were:
John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9; 1Tim.2:4; Acts 24:24-25; Acts 7:51; 1 Peter 1:2 (emphasis on 'foreknowledge'); Rev.22:17

Edited to add 2 more verses.
But now, what do you make of 2 Thessalonians 2:13?

[Sojourner]

But now, what do you make of 2 Thessalonians 2:13?

I say: Thank you, Lord for choosing me...... a rotten, underserving sinner who was dead in trespasses and sins! You are a gracious and merciful God!

[churchmouse7]

Romans 10:13 says :For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Whosoever would include everyone.
Romans 10:12 also states: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him.
I believe that God wants all to be saved but gives us the choice. We can accept the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom 6:23)...or we can reject it.
Praise God I accepted and He saved me from Hell!
In Christ

[kevinmiller]

I think the point is to determine what that verse means. I really don't want the whole thread to be about throwing verses back and forth since nothing will ever get accomplished that way.

[hayesy]

I say: Thank you, Lord for choosing me...... a rotten, underserving sinner who was dead in trespasses and sins! You are a gracious and merciful God!

I think the point is to determine what that verse means. I really don't want the whole thread to be about throwing verses back and forth since nothing will ever get accomplished that way.

:clap:

[John the Baptist]

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

"from the beginning puts the event of choice in eternity past. Whatever one wants to believe about election it is eternal, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation. The Greek verb to choose is ?????? which is First Aorist middle indicative, means God chose in eternity past for himself or according to his own purpose his own to salvation.

God Bless
John

[hayesy]

John, its great to have someone with knowledge of the greek help!

So we have a when. Does the greek text elucidate further on the what this choice is referring to?

[Jerry]

When God made the world, and wrote believers' names in the Book of Life, before (or at) the foundation of the world, He chose those who would believe in Christ to be set apart by the Holy Spirit when they believed the truth - no disagreement there. The disagreement comes in when you say that because He chose/elected those who would receive Jesus Christ that He also made them believe, and that those who did not receive Jesus Christ did not do so because they were not chosen.

The Bible teaches we were elected according to His foreknowledge - I believe that He foreknew those who would receive Jesus Christ - and therefore He elected them. Not that His election made them believers, but that He elected those who would be believers - because He knew the end from the beginning, and knew all those who would trust Christ ahead of time.

[John81]

I'm not sure if this applies here but it's something I've been pondering recently and it seems somewhat connected to the topic in this thread.

In the New Testament, Christ tells some folks that it will be more tolerable for Sodom than for them in the Judgement because if what they had witnessed had been done in Soddom, then those people would have repented.

So I guess the question is, if God wants everyone to come to Him, and He knows what will bring them to repentance, why does He choose not to do whatever it is that would lead some folks to repentance?

[brosmith]

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation"

The "beginning" (I believe) refers to the moment of salvation.

There are 3 aspects to salvation:

#1 - God saved us from the penalty of sin - At the moment of salvation, a person is saved from the penalty of sin.

#2 - God is saving us from the power of sin - As a person lives for Christ, he is being saved from the power of sin.

#3 - God will save us from the presence of sin - When a saved person dies (or is raptured), he is then saved from the presence of sin.


Each of these 3 aspects are accomplished by:

#1 - The sanctification of the Holy Spirit

#2 - The belief of the truth

I believe that both election and predestination are referring to our service to God as believers. Ephesians 1:4 - "chosen us in him" (referring to believers) ... "to be holy and without blemish before him" (referring to our character). Romans 8:29 - "whom he did foreknow" (referring to believers) ... "he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son" (referring to our destiny in this life). We have been chosen to serve Christ, we are called to serve Christ, and we are destined to serve Christ.

[lettheredeemedsayso]

and wrote believers' names in the Book of Life

Bro Jerry, I thought our names were not written in the Lamb's book of life until we are saved? Is there a different book of life?

The disagreement comes in when you say that because He chose/elected those who would receive Jesus Christ that He also made them believe, and that those who did not receive Jesus Christ did not do so because they were not chosen.

Wasn't Israel God's elect, His chosen? Weren't the gentiles later grafted in?

[DaveW]

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Amazing similarities.......

[heartstrings]

Everyone who is ever born has their name in the Book of Life.
Those who die in their sins will have theirs blotted out.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, The passage begins, concerning the "rapture".Perhaps the Thessalonians were concerned that the rapture or "second advent" had already taken place or maybe is about to take place

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Paul is saying that the rapture is NOT about to take place yet. The tribulation has not happened yet. Some things must happen first: The following verses refer to the "falling away" and the AntiChrist, etc.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: The Antichrist
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Notice that they have heard "the LOVE of the truth" but rejected it. They had the opportunity but, rejected the Holy Spirit.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Notice God sent them the "strong delusion AFTER they had already "believed not" or rejected..

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: By what means were they "chosen" or "set apart"? By sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. Did God beleive the truth? No. Did God sanctify their spirits at the beginning of the creation? No. Did they "believe the truth" at the beginning of creation? No. So, "from the beginning" of what? When they believed. And the "salvation" here is not speaking of the instant of being "born again"; It is speaking of their final salvation or redemption which will come at Christ's return as the result of their "belief of the truth". Refer back to verse 1. Also see the meaning of "salvation" in 1 Thessalonians 5:8-9 and Romans 13:11 Basicly, the whole verse is referring to "progressive sanctification".

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Notice also that God "called" them "by our Gospel"; He did not force them to believe.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

[speerjp1]

:goodpost:

[DaveW]

Nicely done HS.

It is amazing what happens when you put things into their context isn't it? :wink