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Biblical Tongues...


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Seth, why do you give a different definition to the word perfect, and then try to show that supposed definition by quoting passages that do not even use the word perfect or complete?

Yes, we are not yet all that God intends us to be - however, the term perfect (as used in the Bible in reference to people) is used to refer to spiritual maturity - and yes, we can be spiritual mature now.

So please deal with that first and please don't say "that was just paul saying that"


I have never used that kind of argument. I personally believe it is Paul identifying himself with all Christians, like he often does when he says "we" or "our". Paul saw the completion of most of the NT, including Hebrews (which I believe he wrote) - therefore had most of the Scriptures that open up OT types. Revelation does not open up the OT - it depends upon the OT to open it up (ie. in the sense that we must have a knowledge of the OT to understand the symbolism John used).
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1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

The Greek Word is ???????, it is rooted in the word "telos" (end) Thayer says that which is brought to its finished end, "finished wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect. The word means to come to a completed end. Thayer also says it refers to the perfect state of all things to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven. It is used in one sense of perfect state as well as full-grown adults, mature.

Richard Trench in is book Synonyms of The New Testament Says this about "teleios" "It will be seen that there is a certain ambiguity in our word "perfect" which, indeed it shares with "teleios" itself, this, namely, that they are both employed now in a relative, now in an absolute sense, for only so could our Lord have said, "Be ye therefore perfect (teleios), as your Heavenly Father is perfect (teleios), Matt. 5:48.

So the word is used in a relative sense when referring to spiritual growth and maturity and then in an absolute sense that is they way it is used I beieve in 1Cor. 12:9.

The subject of chapter 13 is spiritual gifts not the written Word of God. There was a time I had partial knowledge I "understood as a Child, I thought as a child. Paul is saying but There is coming a time , that perfect or complete state that then I shall know even as also I am know. Paul changes from ginosko to epiginosko, which means full, complete knowledge. Paul was saying these gift were not complete knowledge.

No one has full knowledge now in this life which is evident by so many denominations and churches.

God Bless
John
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Yes, we are not yet all that God intends us to be - however, the term perfect (as used in the Bible in reference to people) is used to refer to spiritual maturity - and yes, we can be spiritual mature now.


I agree, often, but not always, it refers to spiritual maturity. However "that which is perfect" in Corinthians is referring to a future state not an individual.



I personally believe it is Paul identifying himself with all Christians, like he often does when he says "we" or "our".


I don't believe you can find a place in the bible where paul used the words "I", "we", or "our" in a manner that did not include him. Yes, he may use those terms where they may well apply to others as well, but if he used those terms it is a sure thing that it included him too...

Paul saw the completion of most of the NT, including Hebrews (which I believe he wrote) - therefore had most of the Scriptures that open up OT types. Revelation does not open up the OT - it depends upon the OT to open it up (ie. in the sense that we must have a knowledge of the OT to understand the symbolism John used


Did not you say that "when that which is perfect is come" refers to the completion of the volume of scripture? Why now imply that "completion" doesn't have to include the book of revelation? Wouldn't that mean that it wasn't complete thus destroying your whole premise?

At any rate, I perceive that this isn't going anywhere so I think the time is right to give a simple "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." and leave it at that. :cool
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The subject of chapter 13 is spiritual gifts not the written Word of God. There was a time I had partial knowledge I "understood as a Child' date=' I thought as a child. Paul is saying but There is coming a time , that perfect or complete state that then I shall know even as also I am know. Paul changes from ginosko to epiginosko, which means full, complete knowledge. Paul was saying these gift were not complete knowledge.[/quote']

Hm, yes, of course the subject is spiritual gifts, specifically the sign gifts - which are referred to that which is in part - which will be done away when that which is perfect shall come - that is the Word of God. We don't need the gift of wisdom or of knowledge - now we just need to dig into the Word of God and find out what God has to say. The healing, miracles, tongues, etc. were to prove the messenger was of God - like the signs of an apostle. Now, God is not giving any more revelation - it is finished.



That's no different than Paul including himself in the living group of believers that will be alive at the rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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That's no different than Paul including himself in the living group of believers that will be alive at the rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Just wanted to add that it seems quite clear that Paul is saying "We Christians", a group he could rightfully include himself in, not "we that will be raptured" since he adds the qualifier "which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord". :2cents
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Just wanted to add that it seems quite clear that Paul is saying "We Christians"' date=' a group he could rightfully include himself in, not "we that will be raptured" since he adds the qualifier "which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord".[/quote']

He doesn't say "we and those that will be alive and remain" - he says "we which are alive and remain."

We Christians - he could just as easily as included himself in the group of dead Christians that would be sleeping in Jesus. That verse if taken literally very clearly gives the impression that Paul thought he would be one of those alive at the rapture - though we know that would not be the case, as he is dead and the rapture has not come yet.
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He doesn't say "we and those that will be alive and remain" - he says "we which are alive and remain."

We Christians - he could just as easily as included himself in the group of dead Christians that would be sleeping in Jesus. That verse if taken literally very clearly gives the impression that Paul thought he would be one of those alive at the rapture - though we know that would not be the case, as he is dead and the rapture has not come yet.


Believe what you like I guess, as it is written:

"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."

And again:

"...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

:Green
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I believe that tongues appear to have been discontinued as a gift being given by God at the present time, and I also make use of the 1Cor.13 argument to explain this. I see "the perfect" as the entire system of an up and running Church with all the elements necessary for spiritual growth in play, first and foremost of which indeed is the Bible. Further, I think the fact that this description in 1Cor.13 is sandwiched in between the two lengthy sections on gifts/tongues in chapters 12 and 14 is a very significant point which is often overlooked in such discussions: chapter 13 is responding directly and particularly to an over-emphasis on certain "spectacular" gifts. But our main "tools" for negotiating this life before we "see face to face" are not our gifts but rather the virtues of faith, hope and love: these are our spiritual "eyes", and it is the truth of the Word that feeds, empowers, and fills them. :2cents

Love,
Madeline

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Believe what you like I guess, as it is written:

"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."

And again:

"...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."


Why are you quoting these verses? Because I differ with you on this issue - or because you think I am condemning those who differ? Which I am not. I believe it is false doctrine - and I am commanded by the Word of God to test all things by His Word.
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Instead of starting a new topic, I'll ask it here.

What do you guys think 1 Corinthians 13:1 means when it says, "though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..."?


Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,

This is a third class conditional sentence in the Greek. It is a supposable case, Paul did not say he spoke with the tongues of angels. But suppose he did. Still without love it was nothing.

God Bless
John
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