Biblical Tongues...

[Guest Guest]

The trouble with you, your looking back to Paul, its not what Paul meant, for Paul did not actually author the books, God did this thru Paul. So your analogy of what Paul meant is useless.

Hmmm... in just about every other case where Paul said "I" you would admit he was referring to himself. Of course God authored it through Paul but he allowed Paul to use the word "I" which he would not have done if that was not going to be true... So do we really need to define the meaning of the word "I" as we would have to define "is" for a past president? :Bleh

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

"I Corinthians 13:8-13 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."



Bro. Johnny Mac, please consider this... Even if your point of view on these verses is correct in many isolated countries it could be argued that scripture has not yet come to them. It may either be not available in their language or just simply very, very hard to get. I believe the stronger and more open satan is in a given area the more powerful God will show himself. Which would leave the possibility open in "dark" areas of the world even if your point of view is right.

Personally, I read this passage as speaking of our future glorified body and fellowship with Christ. Did the completion of scripture cause us to know God as he knows us? Absolutely not. We do know God through scripture but if we actually knew him as well as he knows us we wouldn't disagree on anything would we? Though some things are clearly revealed we still see through a glass darkly in other areas don't we? Further, Paul uses the personal pronoun "I" when he says "then shall I know even as also I am known.". Paul died before the book of Revelation was written... That says to me he was not referring to the completion of scripture in this passage but rather of heaven...

I understand your points but respectfully disagree..infact possibly my favotite preacher of all time John R. Rice,believes simularlly to you..The way I read it God is pointing out tounges,even when it was used correctly,wasnt to be sought after,but charity is because unlike the revelatory gifts that will cease when the revelation(the bible)is completed,charity in this world and the next will never cease..

God is contrasting the two..

[Guest Guest]

I understand your points but respectfully disagree..

Ok, fine, it is practically speaking not much of an issue at the moment anyway... We all agree that the pentacostals are quite wrong and we disagree only on whether or not it "can" happen today.

[John81]

"I Corinthians 13:8-13 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."



Bro. Johnny Mac, please consider this... Even if your point of view on these verses is correct in many isolated countries it could be argued that scripture has not yet come to them. It may either be not available in their language or just simply very, very hard to get. I believe the stronger and more open satan is in a given area the more powerful God will show himself. Which would leave the possibility open in "dark" areas of the world even if your point of view is right.

Personally, I read this passage as speaking of our future glorified body and fellowship with Christ. Did the completion of scripture cause us to know God as he knows us? Absolutely not. We do know God through scripture but if we actually knew him as well as he knows us we wouldn't disagree on anything would we? Though some things are clearly revealed we still see through a glass darkly in other areas don't we? Further, Paul uses the personal pronoun "I" when he says "then shall I know even as also I am known.". Paul died before the book of Revelation was written... That says to me he was not referring to the completion of scripture in this passage but rather of heaven...

:amen:

[JerryNumbers]

Since the early 1900's the tongue issues has been growing quite steadily, seems around our part of the country it really picked up in the early 80's.

And when something comes along, many will pick up their bags and run with it.

Just as the other Jerry said, "Nothing - I know what the Bible says; therefore Bro Ben is wrong of his understanding of what happened there. I don't change my theology because someone had an experience. Many people have been deceived through the ages."

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2 Peter 3:3 (KJV)

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Tim 3:1-7 (KJV)

Good sign that the last days are here is the number of false teachers, who like the homosexual crowd are getting very brave and bold.

I recall the tongue movement got popular here in the early to mid 80's, they change a few people around here, but none of them have changed what God says about it.

[Jerry]

I would encourage you to read this study - even if you disagree with my premise - as it looks at the English and Greek words used in the passage:

1 Corinthians 13:8-12

This study also looks at how certain words and phrases in that passage are used in other similar passages in the NT; therefore showing the contexts and meaning of some of the words are the same as used elsewhere in the NT.

[kevinmiller]

Healing and tongues are not power, Jerry808, it's faith. It seems like we have become a faithless generation here in America. You're right, miracles have, in many places, ceased, but it's not because God refuses to perform them but that we don't believe that He will. Miracles do happen. I've seen them happen, read about them, etc. In my book, if God can miraculously heal somebody, there is no reason why He cannot allow someone to hear in their native tongue as He did in the NT. I believe that we often limit God's power, sticking Him in a box, and it is often out of reaction to pentecostals who take verses out of context which leads us to further take verses out of context in order to rebuke them.

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

Ok, fine, it is practically speaking not much of an issue at the moment anyway... We all agree that the pentacostals are quite wrong and we disagree only on whether or not it "can" happen today.

Very well put brother.

[tired]

sticking Him in a box... sounds a little like emergent speak. Do you think God would contradict the word?

[JerryNumbers]

sticking Him in a box... sounds a little like emergent speak. Do you think God would contradict the word?

That statement deserves a .

For it is completely true, God will not contradict His written Word, if He did we could never depend on Him.

Its for sure we never put Him in a box nor do we limit His power, but one thing we rightly do is we take Him at His Word, nothing more and nothing else.

One should never take liberties with His Word, it is the only place we can be assured of that we can always find the whole truth.

[Guest Guest]

Healing and tongues are not power, Jerry808, it's faith. It seems like we have become a faithless generation here in America. You're right, miracles have, in many places, ceased, but it's not because God refuses to perform them but that we don't believe that He will. Miracles do happen. I've seen them happen, read about them, etc. In my book, if God can miraculously heal somebody, there is no reason why He cannot allow someone to hear in their native tongue as He did in the NT. I believe that we often limit God's power, sticking Him in a box, and it is often out of reaction to pentecostals who take verses out of context which leads us to further take verses out of context in order to rebuke them.

I can't say I agree with you there. If you look in scripture open miracles were usually in specific time periods where God chose to manifest himself that way. They were also often worked by those that suffered from faithlessness at times... I don't think the reason that we are not healing the sick, raising the dead etc., has anything to do with not enough faith but rather because he is not choosing to work that way now. That said in the right set of circumstances I do not believe there is any scriptural reason why it couldn't happen today. We know that the two prophets is revelation are working miracles and while it could be accurately said that that is post-rapture they will still have the bible and it will still be true... If it is done away with now it would be done away with then...

[Guest Guest]

sticking Him in a box... sounds a little like emergent speak. Do you think God would contradict the word?

I doubt he meant that. I suspect that he was referring to the tendency to say that God doesn't work miracles today simply because we don't see it much. Thus the box would be that of personal experience...

[tired]

I believe God does miracles in these days. Maybe I took it wrong cause that is one of the big emergent catchphrases. God can and does anything He wants I was just pointing out that He will never go against the word.

[Guest Guest]

I was just pointing out that He will never go against the word.

I don't think your going to get an argument there... The only issue is would tongues, open miracles, etc. today be against his word? That's where the disagreement is...

[kevinmiller]

You could be partially correct, but I don't believe entirely. I think that we aren't seeing miracles primarily because of a lack of faith for God to perform them. Plus, it wouldn't seem like what your saying would hold up in light of the fact that miracles do still happen. There was a missionary to South America in our old church in NC who told stories of having walked on fire and glass and various other miracles in dealing with the witch doctors. Our friend knows of a man who's a missionary to Africa who was able to heal people there. The difference is, they have faith whereas we would rather trust in our money and doctors and education.