Father is greater than Son

[Jerry]

Jesus took on a human/angelic appearance at times. Then Angel of the Lord was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ. The Bible is pretty clear that it was an appearance - not a reality - ie. it was not His body, but a temperary appearance He took on. No one could see God as He was/is and live - that is why Jesus came as a man. On the mount of transfiguration and in Revelation 1, when people saw God in SOME of His glory, they were overwhelmed.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

[282Mikado]

The appearance seems pretty tangible in Genesis 18 where he dines with Abraham. Could not this "appearance" be much like the appearance of Jesus to the disciples after his death? Or on the road to Emmaus.

In my mind I can still see these appearances as the "body" part of the trinity; body, soul, spirit.

Scripture obviously states that no man has seen God (with the exception of the passing by of Moses), but perhaps that means God in His full Triune glory. Whereas the body part of the trinity is not so overwhelming, and this is what has appeared to man. Not only as Jesus, but in the OT as well.

[Madeline]

282Mikado, your analogy of comparing the Trinity to man's (body, soul, spirit) completely fails to grasp the true understanding of a Tri-personal being. You are ONE PERSON, not three! God is ONE GOD manifested in THREE eternal persons, so your analogy fails. More later....

[282Mikado]

282Mikado' date=' your analogy of comparing the Trinity to man's (body, soul, spirit) completely fails to grasp the true understanding of a Tri-personal being. You are ONE PERSON, not three! God is ONE GOD manifested in THREE eternal persons, so your analogy fails. More later....[/quote']

Sorry, I don't think it is that far off. When I die (if before the rapture) my body will stay here in the grave, but my soul and spirit will go to heaven. At the rapture my body will be caught up and rejoin my soul and spirit. All three different entities, all three eternal. One person, three different eternal entities.

Now I may not have a full understanding of the trinity, but to date this is the best comparison I've heard. I am willing to listen to your thoughts and will never completely reject them unless they are not biblical, just as I don't think you can completely dismiss my view. That is unless you have the complete 100% understanding of the trinity.

[Madeline]

Nobody has a complete "100%" understanding of the Trinity, which is why we should not with our "finite" minds try to make a comparison to a Eternal Being. I have heard sooo many analogies that my head is spinning now. These analogies are the reason why there are so many false doctrines concerning the Deity of Jesus (Modalism, Arianism, JW's, Mormonism, etc., etc., etc....).

Love,
Madeline

[Madeline]

All three different entities, all three eternal. One person, three different eternal entities.

God is not 3 different entities! God is ONE ENTITY

Webster's Definition of Entity.

Entity - A real being, whether in thought (as an ideal conception) or
in fact; being; essence; existence.

God is not 3 beings....God is ONE BEING manifested in 3 Eternal persons.

Love,
Madeline

[282Mikado]

Okay, I'm sorry I chose an inappropriate word. Let me say part instead of entity.

I am not saying that man compares to God in any respect except that we are created in His image, that image consisting of a trinity.

In all other aspects I think we are in agreement, God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-existant, one and three.

Perhaps I'm just not explaining myelf well.

[JerryNumbers]

Okay, I'm sorry I chose an inappropriate word. Let me say part instead of entity.

I am not saying that man compares to God in any respect except that we are created in His image, that image consisting of a trinity.

In all other aspects I think we are in agreement, God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-existant, one and three.

Perhaps I'm just not explaining myelf well.

Mikado, I don't think your off, different people have different ways of explaining this, some don't like it much if you don't use their method of explaing the Trinty, even thought they are not any more right than you.

And this is something that humans cannot completely comprehend anyway.

Because of the oneness bunch and their false beliefs on this matter some get real defensive on the teachings of the Trinity.

[Jerry]

People may have different ways of explaining the Trinity - but our illustrations are useless if they don't line up with the Bible. Jesus is not the "body" part of the Trinity. He never had a body until 2000 years ago. He took on the appearance of an angel/man in the OT (Angel of the Lord), but it was an appearance, not a real body - just like a spiritual angel can take the appearance of a physical man/body - but they are spiritual, not physical, beings.

Though He appeared as an angel in the OT, He was not an angel, nor took on their nature - however, He took on the nature of man when He was born in Bethlehem.

Hebrews 2:14-16 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

The analogy you are making falls apart - though man is a tri-partite being (body, soul, spirit), each part of us is not a separate person - though there are three persons in the one true God.

[Guest Guest]

Jerry, scripture says Adam was made in the image of God right? Who was it? The father, son, or the Holy Ghost? Further, it would seem that Jacob wrestled with a real body, not just an appearance.

[Jerry]

Jerry' date=' scripture says Adam was made in the image of God right? Who was it? The father, son, or the Holy Ghost?

Jesus appeared many times in the OT as the Angel of the Lord - was He a real angel? Of course not. Do angels have a physical body? No, they are spiritual beings - yet they have taken on the appearance of a man, and why we can sometimes entertain angels unawares. To us, they appear human - but they are not. I can't explain that - but those verses I previously quoted from Hebrews 2 show that Jesus did not have His own body or human nature until He took one on 2000 years ago.

As previously quoted, Jesus - which was the name given to His humanity - is the image of the invisible God. If Jesus had shown up as He was in Heaven, no man would have been able to endure it.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

What people saw in the OT was an appearance of the Son - veiled, not as He really was - as no one could see God as He was and live. Yet in the Son (ie. when He was manifested in the flesh during His earthly ministry) we can see what God is like - the image of the invisible God in a human body.

[Guest Guest]

If Jesus had shown up as He was in Heaven, no man would have been able to endure it.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live

"Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle."

"Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face ,"

"Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. "

I believe the verse you quote is referring to God the father, or Jesus in full glory, not Jesus Christ as he appeared in the OT or the NT. I do think that Moses spoke with the person of Jesus Christ face to face... I also think that he covered his glory before speaking to Moses though, as can be seen by what happened when Moses asked to see his glory. What does hebrews call the veil? his flesh right?

What people saw in the OT was an appearance of the Son - veiled, not as He really was - as no one could see God as He was and live.

BTW What people saw in the NT was a veiled Christ too. Only on the mount of transfiguration did a little of his glory appear. That is why scripture says that "when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is". No more veil then. :Green

[Jerry]

I agree - what people saw in the OT was the Son, with His glory veiled - however, it was not His own body He appeared in, but an appearance He took on. No part of the Trinity had a body, until Bethlehem. Jesus is and was omnipresent - therefore, until His divine nature was united to a human nature (His own body) He was not limited to a body (still is not, though now He has a human body):

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Seven horns = perfect/complete strength/omnipotence.
Seven eyes = perfect knowledge/omniscience.
Seven spirits sent forth into all the earth = perfect present/omnipresence.

[Guest Guest]

I agree - what people saw in the OT was the Son, with His glory veiled - however, it was not His own body He appeared in, but an appearance He took on.

I suppose there is no way to know that. If he looked like he was there, could be touched, etc. that is close enough for me. At what point does "appearance" become reality? I understand the NT verses that you use to get the impression he didn't have a body then, I am just not sure I agree.

[Jerry]

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Angels appeared in human bodies in the OT - does that mean that they are human and have physical bodies then?

If Jesus had the body of an angel in the OT - what happened to that body when He took on the body of a man?

As stated in Hebrews 2, Jesus quite clearly did not take on the nature or body of an angel - so what do we have in the OT when He appeared as the Angel of the Lord?