Father is greater than Son

[Jerry]

If Jesus was a God who always was and not God's Firstborn how then did He become the Son? Again Jesus calls the Father His God. Jesus stated the Father was greater than Him.

A God? There is only ONE God. Jesus became God's only begotten Son through the virgin birth - ie. His humanity, not deity, was born. In the OT, He is also referred to as the Son in several places - and that designates His relationship and fellowship to the Father - but does not indicate some lower status.

[Madeline]

What's amazing is how JW's refer to Jesus as "a" God. If Jesus is "a" God, then that would make Him a false God since there is only 1 God. :loco

[heartstrings]

Jesus is God, and all things were made by Jesus
Jhn 1:1

[RandyW]

A God? There is only ONE God. Jesus became God's only begotten Son through the virgin birth - ie. His humanity, not deity, was born. In the OT, He is also referred to as the Son in several places - and that designates His relationship and fellowship to the Father - but does not indicate some lower status.

Yes, there is only one God. He seems to call Himself Father. Jesus indicates the one He prays to as Father is His God. I guess according to you Jesus could pray, "oh myself" and then think why do I keep speaking to myself? Why do I need to ask? Why do I need the Father? How did I get to be the Son? We are only One. Why didn't I say Father into your hands "I commit our Spirit when I was on the cross" Why did the Father have to allow His fullness to dwell in Me am I not already God? Why do I have to obey myself to remain in my own love?

oh well


Randy

[Jerry]

Someday, when you actually believe the whole Bible, you will not set it at odds against itself.

Sad that you seem to think either that Jesus is not God or that there is more than one God - either view contradicts the whole Bible (and you have to truly be blinded/lost to believe either). The true believer accepts Jesus Christ is equal with the Father, that the Trinity is Biblical, that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh as 1 Timothy 3:16 and John 1:1-3 and 14 clearly state (among other passages).

[JerryNumbers]

Seems there are so many different beliefs about the Trinity. I agree, its impossible for our human mind to understand how God could be 3 but yet only one. But that is what the Bible declares, to come to another decision would go against the Holy Scriptures.

But according to the Holy Scriptures there is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, all 3 being equally, all 3 being fully God, yet Jesus saying the Father and I are One.

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

1 Peter 3:22 (KJV)

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 10:12 (KJV)

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Heb 8:1 (KJV)

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 1:3 (KJV)

I once made a statement to a Pentecostal saying no man can fully understand it. I asked him did not Jesus say that he was gone to set on the right hand of God?

He said he completely understood it, there was only Jesus and Jesus was God.

I pointed out such Holy Scriptures as I posted above, his remark, there is only God who is Jesus, who setting on the throne, there is no one to His right hand side. Seems to be his conclusion competely contradicts the Holy Word.

[RandyW]

Jesus was both God and man on earth (Jn.1:1; 8:58; 20:28; Tit.2:13; 2Pet. 1:1; Rev.1:8; Lk.3:52; Jn.4:6; 22:4; Heb.7:24). The word flesh (sarx) in the Greek expresses Jesus' "humanity" (e.g., "The word was made flesh - Jn.1:14), and as man He looked to the scriptures to ward off the devil (Matt.4:1-11; Heb.4:15,16). He also referred to His Father as "God" because He was fully man, and as a human being...He called His Father God as we do (......I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Jn.20:17).

Love,
Madeline

Jesus is all that the Father is because that is how His Father and our Father ordained Him to be. Yes a body was prepared for Him and He came down to us. The Father commanded His angels to worship Jesus as Jesus purchased many by His blood for God. Jesus stated authority was Given. All those things testify that the Father is greater including the Lords on testimony.

Jesus is the Firstborn over all creation through whom God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them..

Randy

[RandyW]

Someday, when you actually believe the whole Bible, you will not set it at odds against itself.

Sad that you seem to think either that Jesus is not God or that there is more than one God - either view contradicts the whole Bible (and you have to truly be blinded/lost to believe either). The true believer accepts Jesus Christ is equal with the Father, that the Trinity is Biblical, that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh as 1 Timothy 3:16 and John 1:1-3 and 14 clearly state (among other passages).

As Jesus lives because of the Living Father in Him we live because of Jesus. Jesus is the Son.

Randy

[Madeline]

Jesus is all that the Father is because that is how His Father and our Father ordained Him to be. Yes a body was prepared for Him and He came down to us. The Father commanded His angels to worship Jesus as Jesus purchased many by His blood for God. Jesus stated authority was Given. All those things testify that the Father is greater including the Lords on testimony.

Jesus is the Firstborn over all creation through whom God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them..

Randy

Randy, either Jesus is God or He isn't. The bible clearly teaches that there are 3 distinct persons in the Godhead. Jesus "the SON" was referred to as God on earth (Jn.20:28). And because Jesus was "given" authority this somehow makes Him less equal than His Father? A "human" father can give his son authority, however that doesn't imply that he's somehow better than his son as a human being. As human beings...they are both "equal." Also, I don't really see anything in your comments of any particular substance. The deity of Jesus Christ is a very important and I would say essential part of the gospel. Of course the concept of someone who is both God and man in a single person is difficult to understand, something Jesus Himself broached on our behalf when He asked the Pharisees how David could refer to the Messiah who is clearly his son as "Lord", therefore being also clearly God. The answer with which every Christian should be completely and fully familiar is that Jesus who is God became, in addition to God, a true human being at the point of His virgin birth. As John explains, the Word which had been face to face with the Father before time began "made flesh" - Jesus, true deity, took on true humanity and become in addition to God also man (Jn.1:1-5).

This is an indescribably wonderful and sublime thing! But it is also a critical point of Christian doctrine without which heresy and unbelief have always been close at hand (most of the attacks on the church visible in the early centuries after the apostles came in the form of just such "questions" about the nature of the God-man, Jesus Christ, whether doubting His divinity or His humanity). For the gospel is centered around the Person and the work of Christ. Without becoming a man, Jesus could not die for our sins in our place. But without being God, Jesus could not be "sent" to come into the world from outside of it in order to save it. The God-man dying for the sins of the world is the essence of the gospel, and it is difficult for me to see how someone could fail to accept this essential core of truth and still truly be a Christian (a Gnostic, maybe, or one of any of the many variety of false sects which masquerade as "Christian", but not a true Christian).

Paul's words in Philippians say it all:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5-8

Thus all the instances of Jesus not "acting like God" were necessary restrictions taken on by Him voluntarily in order to accomplish the Father's plan, chief among which is the humiliation of the cross. But it doesn't take much imagination when reading the gospels to understand that only God could have accomplished what Jesus accomplished in His three year ministry (e.g., just look at His testing in the desert), and, as a matter of fact, we do pray not only in the Name of Jesus but to Jesus Himself (Jn.14:14; He is also the object of our worship). The fact that part of Jesus' testing and self-imposed yet necessary humiliation included not using His own divinity to aid His humanity in all of His exceptional trials should not be taken as any lack of deity but really just the opposite: only someone who was both God and man could ever have done all that Jesus did; only someone who was both God and man could ever have spoken about Himself as Jesus did (Jn.8:58; 10:30; 12:44; 14:6; Col.1:16,17).

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The word firstborn here means "foremost (in time, place, order or importance)" - ie. having first place - it does not mean He was born first before everything else was made. The only birth Jesus had was His physical birth (born of a virgin) 2000 years ago, when He came to die for our sins - yet this passage in Colossians is referring to creation. Jesus was not born then - but He is God from all eternity.

[RandyW]

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The word firstborn here means "foremost (in time, place, order or importance)" - ie. having first place - it does not mean He was born first before everything else was made. The only birth Jesus had was His physical birth (born of a virgin) 2000 years ago, when He came to die for our sins - yet this passage in Colossians is referring to creation. Jesus was not born then - but He is God from all eternity.

I would disagree with your reading of that passage in regard to what firstborn means as well as I am sure what "church of the Firstborn" means in the book of Hebrews. Heb 12:23

Randy

[RandyW]

Randy, either Jesus is God or He isn't. The bible clearly teaches that there are 3 distinct persons in the Godhead. Jesus "the SON" was referred to as God on earth (Jn.20:28). And because Jesus was "given" authority this somehow makes Him less equal than His Father? A "human" father can give his son authority, however that doesn't imply that he's somehow better than his son as a human being. As human beings...they are both "equal." Also, I don't really see anything in your comments of any particular substance. The deity of Jesus Christ is a very important and I would say essential part of the gospel. Of course the concept of someone who is both God and man in a single person is difficult to understand, something Jesus Himself broached on our behalf when He asked the Pharisees how David could refer to the Messiah who is clearly his son as "Lord", therefore being also clearly God. The answer with which every Christian should be completely and fully familiar is that Jesus who is God became, in addition to God, a true human being at the point of His virgin birth. As John explains, the Word which had been face to face with the Father before time began "made flesh" - Jesus, true deity, took on true humanity and become in addition to God also man (Jn.1:1-5).

This is an indescribably wonderful and sublime thing! But it is also a critical point of Christian doctrine without which heresy and unbelief have always been close at hand (most of the attacks on the church visible in the early centuries after the apostles came in the form of just such "questions" about the nature of the God-man, Jesus Christ, whether doubting His divinity or His humanity). For the gospel is centered around the Person and the work of Christ. Without becoming a man, Jesus could not die for our sins in our place. But without being God, Jesus could not be "sent" to come into the world from outside of it in order to save it. The God-man dying for the sins of the world is the essence of the gospel, and it is difficult for me to see how someone could fail to accept this essential core of truth and still truly be a Christian (a Gnostic, maybe, or one of any of the many variety of false sects which masquerade as "Christian", but not a true Christian).

Paul's words in Philippians say it all:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5-8

Thus all the instances of Jesus not "acting like God" were necessary restrictions taken on by Him voluntarily in order to accomplish the Father's plan, chief among which is the humiliation of the cross. But it doesn't take much imagination when reading the gospels to understand that only God could have accomplished what Jesus accomplished in His three year ministry (e.g., just look at His testing in the desert), and, as a matter of fact, we do pray not only in the Name of Jesus but to Jesus Himself (Jn.14:14; He is also the object of our worship). The fact that part of Jesus' testing and self-imposed yet necessary humiliation included not using His own divinity to aid His humanity in all of His exceptional trials should not be taken as any lack of deity but really just the opposite: only someone who was both God and man could ever have done all that Jesus did; only someone who was both God and man could ever have spoken about Himself as Jesus did (Jn.8:58; 10:30; 12:44; 14:6; Col.1:16,17).

Love,
Madeline

Think of Jesus as the lamp and the light in that lamp that shines out is the Father who will never leave the Son.
Jesus testified that He gave us the gift the Father gave Him. As the Father is in Jesus so Jesus will be in us. As Jesus lives Forever because of the Living Father in Him so we will live forever because of Jesus living is in those that belong to Him. As far as the Holy Spirit Jesus said those that listen to the "Father" come to Him and He will raise them up on the last day. The Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit - there is only One God.

Randy

[Madeline]

Think of Jesus as the lamp and the light in that lamp that shines out is the Father who will never leave the Son.
Jesus testified that He gave us the gift the Father gave Him. As the Father is in Jesus so Jesus will be in us. As Jesus lives Forever because of the Living Father in Him so we will live forever because of Jesus living is in those that belong to Him. As far as the Holy Spirit Jesus said those that listen to the "Father" come to Him and He will raise them up on the last day. The Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit - there is only One God.

Randy

The Holy Spirit is also the Eternal spirit of the Son (Rom.8:9).

Romans 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

There is One eternal being in three "persons" according to our finite understanding. Btw, Jesus said that He will raise "Himself" from the dead...

John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple (His body), and in three days I will raise it up. I agree with you that there is One God.

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

I would disagree with your reading of that passage in regard to what firstborn means as well as I am sure what "church of the Firstborn" means in the book of Hebrews. Heb 12:23

Saying you disagree with the meaning of a word as used in a certain passage because it means something somewhere else is pretty foolish. I gave the literal definition of the Greek word used in Colossians.

Just curious, what does "church of the firstborn" mean in your books?

[Madeline]

The context easily defines the word "firstborn"...

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

If the word firstborn "prototokos" means that Christ is the first to be created by God, then Christ, who is the firstborn from the dead would be the first to rise from the dead. However, we know that there were many others who were resurrected before Christ (1 Sam.28:11,14; 1 Kin.17:22; 2 Kin.4:32-35; 13:21; Matt.9:23-25; Lk.7:12-15; 9:30; Jn.11:43). Jesus has preeminence over all creation as in being sovereign over all creation (v.16...."ALL THINGS were created by him"). The context is sooo clear.

Love,
Madeline