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Not to get all argumentive about this particular point, but I have a 700 plus page book of collected sermons from 1680's to the 1790's on American soil. The pulpit in America was ALWAYS one of the determining influences on our thoughts, ideals and expressed the outrages of tyrany for many generations.

Too bad American Christians have opted out of Capitol Hill, perhaps there is a direct relation to the sad and pathetic state of affairs now evident in the idealogy of the general public of the US

God bless,

Calvary
Too bad American Christians have opted out of following Christ. The position of God's people in the Bible is always a position of the inferior/outnumbered position. God's strength is magnified in our weakness, not our political clout.
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I've read serveral of those books and you are twisting history to fit so it will line up with your beliefs.
One line snippets don't prove your point. I can take one line qoutes from all kinds of places and make them say just about anything I want, but when they are viewed in the full context they don't work and that is what you are doing.
History is not on your side. It's not just Leland there are other Baptists from that time frame that can be quoted just as easily.

C

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Too bad American Christians have opted out of following Christ. The position of God's people in the Bible is always a position of the inferior/outnumbered position. God's strength is magnified in our weakness' date=' not our political clout.[/quote']

This doesn't work either show me were Christ was ever weak in his stance to the Gov't of his time. And Some of God's people used there politics specifically, Paul used his citizenship to get infront of ceasar to present his case. That's taking it to the highest position of Gov't in his time.

C
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Paul and Jesus both let the system work, even as unjust as it was and let God decide their fate. I don't care if it works for you, it's the simple truth.

Paul wasn't a politician and neither was Jesus. In fact, Jesus never spoke of the injustice of the government when he could of. Don't you find it interesting that when he was talking to Roman soldiers that he didn't say... HEY, you work for a corrupt government, you need to stand up against it.

Nope, he told them to work for their money and not complain about their pay, not to take things by force or accuse other's falsely.

Luke 3:14 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

I know it doesn't fit in with the modern notion's of patriotism so I will shut up and let everyone believe what they want...
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Zeal if your going to site scripture you ought to at least get the right references Luke 3:14 is John the Baptist speaking not Jesus Christ.

I never said Paul was a politician don't put words in my mouth. I said he appealed to the highest power of Gov't. He told of Christ to jailers, Kings and Judges and Principalities and Powers all through the Gov't and if more Christians today were influencing and winning there elected officials to Christ we might actually have a voice in our Gov't, maybe. Imagine if Agrippa had believed instead of almost being persuaded what a difference that would have made in Jerusalem.

C

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Hi zeal,

I think you missed my point. I didn't imply that Christians should fight political "causes", I simply said that the pulpit of the early days of America was very political and manifested the thoughts of the right and of the majority

I never implied that legislating morality was the solution, I understand that can't be done. But to remain silent about the miscarriage of justice, rights of human life, and the right to the pursuit of happiness is never true to Biblical principles. If abortion is made legal, my pulpit will decry it as a terrible crime against the Creator. If euthanasia is legalized I would rally my congregation to oppose it by prayer AND action. Terrible it is that churches are not picketing the porno stores, the abortion clinics, the dens of iniquity. Brother that isn't political, that is opposing the works of the devil wherever they be found. I say vote 'em out, not lie there and whimper about what Christ would do. He opposed the political leaders of his day very publickly. I can't believe that you think he did not. Perhaps a new reading of the NT is in order.

Seperation of church and state by no means implies or intimates that there should be no Christianity in and of the state. You seem to be demonstrating a dogmatic line that was never shared by your Baptist forefathers. Seperation of church and state merely means there can be no laws made governing Christianity, it never meant that Christianity shouldn't govern the laws. In fact if more Christians stood up to the poor laws and made a showing in the polls, some good might come of it. Unfortunately too many leaders in the "Christian" world do not inform their congregations and allow them to vote their consciences, which far too often has been molded by NBC and CBS instead of the word of God.

I'm not suggesting that you do not, but the idea that we ought not have political views or participate in the shaping of our nation is ridiculous brother.

God bless,

Calvary

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Well, I've not said any of what you suggested. I don't have time to address it completely now. My statement is simple and I believe I have the same attitude that early baptist held and that's the idea the God will change people hearts if we share the gospel.

Most "christians" today will be the first to get involved in a political discussion, but won't share their faith.

Gotta run, I will be back later.

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I have been a member of an Independent fundamental Baptist Church for 30 years, and have pastored 1 1/2 years, as well as being an evangelist. People have left the SBC for various reasons, such as Autonomy, association with corrupt Colleges, Doctrine, and other personal reasons (J. Frank Norris, Jack Hyles, John R. Rice for example). I believe that the Book of Acts shows and teaches autonomy (Berean Church) as well as strict doctrinal adherence. In my opinion, no Church that holds to a higher authority than Jesus and His Word is a true NT Church. Not minor is the final authority of Scripture. It is a major tenet of the New Testament Church and should be. Where you go to church and who you associate with is up to you, but a good independent church is the best way to go.

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I agree with Zealy,the historical baptist position has always been for the seperation between church and state.

Looking back on sermons from past baptist preachers,yes they preached hot and heavy agianst things that are against God's word.If that happend to be a political issue for some,they didnt shy away from it .

The difference between what they did and what A LOT of sbc are doing now is that we should preach on issues for the cause of Christ,and not for the cause of politics.Thats being done today by preachers on the right and the left and it simply isnt biblical.

We are to be spreading the gospel and living a seperated life untill Jesus returns.Im not saying we shoudnt vote,or be informed about politics,Im saying that some folks have lost sight of what we are called to do.We are not called to change government,we are called to represent Jesus.

Christians should be involved in issues that face our country(abortion,sodomite marriges,ect..) but NOT for a political cause,but for the cause of Christ.His kingdom is not of this world,and hisoricaly,the RCC,,Anglicans,Calvanist,Lutherans and other protestants have always thought church and state go together,but the baptists have not.Sure old time baptists preached on issues that had become political,but they for the most part were advancing the cause of Christ and not for politics.If they were preaching for the sole cause for politics,they werent being scriptual.

The government will never be the answer to the problem that faces our country,and that problem isnt the democrats,republicans,hillary or Bush.The problem that faces our country is SIN.The government cant do anything about that but Jesus can,and that should be our focus.

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Zeal,

You and I are talking about 2 different things. I don't advocate taking the church up to capital hill,


I'll say it again, separation of church and state has never been what you men ar esaying it is. In fact you sound more like professors of some liberal college. Separation of church and state is merely saying that the "state" cannot involve itself in religion or propagate any sects religious beliefs in favor of another's. It does not mean that Christians opt out of the running of their country.

God bless,

Calvary


edited to add this link

I agree with the general consensus of this article, not every word, it should make a good read.

http://www.theflamingtorch.org/archives ... n_Myth.htm

Thanks

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1640
"An enforced uniformity of religion throughout a nation or civil state, confounds the civil and religious, denies the principles of Christianity and civility, and that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh." Roger Williams (founder of First Baptist Church in America), The Bloody Tenet of Persecution.

1640
"When they [the Church] have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the Candlestick, etc., and made His Garden a wilderness as it is this day. And that therefore if He will ever please to restore His garden and Paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world, and all that be saved out of the world are to be transplanted out of the wilderness of the World." Roger Williams, "Mr. Cotton's Letter Lately Printed, Examined and Answered," The Complete Writings of Roger Williams, Vol. 1, 108.

1773
"Religious matters are to be separated from the jurisdiction of the state, not because they are beneath the interests of the state but, quite to the contrary, because they are too high and holy and thus are beyond the competence of the state." Isaac Backus, colonial Baptist from New England, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty.

1790
"The notion of a Christian commonwealth should be exploded forever. ... Government should protect every man in thinking and speaking freely, and see that one does not abuse another. The liberty I contend for is more than toleration. The very idea of toleration is despicable; it supposes that some have a pre-eminence above the rest to grant indulgence, whereas all should be equally free, Jews, Turks, Pagans and Christians." John Leland, "A Chronicle of His Time in Virginia," The Writings of the Later Elder John Leland, published in 1845.

1791
"These establishments metamorphose the church into a creature, and religion into a principle of state, which has a natural tendency to make men conclude that Bible religion is nothing but a trick of state." John Leland, "Right of Conscience Inalienable, and Therefore, Religious Opinions Not Cognizable By The Law," The Writings of the Later Elder John Leland, published in 1845.

1804
"Experience...has informed us that the fondness of magistrates to foster Christianity has done it more harm than all the persecutions ever did." The Writings of the Later Elder John Leland, published in 1845.


However, things did not continue so well for the Baptists, because a great declension set in upon then beginning in a bout1780. The Revolutionary War seems to have had a paradoxical effect upon them. They well understood that the move toward separation from Great Britain was a great boon for their cause. But while this is true, the Revolution also brought on a declension in the religious life of the Baptists. Leland and Semple refer to this low state of affairs and assign various reasons for it. Leland declared, "From this time (1780) to the year 1785, by the siege of Lord Cornwallis, the refunding of paper money, and removals to Kentucky, religion ran low in Virginia," and, "But as they gained their piece of freedom, so the cares of war, the spirit of trade, and moving to western waters, seemed to bring on a general declension."30 For whatever cause, the religious declension was not confined to the Baptists. All religion was at a low ebb after the war. Many now felt that religion could not survive without some sort of state recognition.

These conditions led to the next struggle that finally resulted in the completion of the process of religious freedom. Dissenters had gained a great deal during the years 1776-1780. But after the war a conservative reaction set in, and as the coming of the Revolution had aided the dissenting cause, so this reaction after the war threatened to impede their cause. Much that had been achieved for religious freedom appeared to be in danger of being rolled back. Jefferson's Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom was introduced in 1779, but it was not passed. In 1784 a plan for the support of Christian ministers was brought forward. James Madison was almost alone in the legislature in his opposition to this plan. Of the dissenting groups, only the Baptists were Madison's allies in opposing this measure at first.


You can read Leland yourself here: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hill ... eland.html

No one is saying we shouldn't vote, or that a Christian shouldn't run for office (although at most higher levels I believe they have to give up their convictions to get elected), but the form of "Christian America" that we see today is more harmful to the cause of Christ than it is helpful. And the history that is being taught to many people about the "christian founding of America" is erroneous. The real miracle in America is that the constitution (the B.O.R.'s specifically) protected everyone like it did, because it made the SMALL amount of Bible believing Christians able to practice their belief without bowing to the Anglicans, Methodist, etc. Baptist weren't a large portion of the population of America at the founding of our country.
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