"Reformed Theology" and "Baptist" should be irreconcilable.

[zealyouthguy]

I've seen a lot of "reformed baptist" now days. If part of being a Baptist means you believe in Soul Liberty... doesn't that conflict with all those "reformed" guys?

[dwayner79]

Since when was Soul Liberty a baptist distinctive?

[zealyouthguy]

Since when was Soul Liberty a baptist distinctive?

huh? Are you serious?

[chev1958]

My understanding of soul liberty is that Baptists believe every person (whether saved or unsaved) has the right to choose what he/she believes. That person is also accountable to God for those beliefs. Based on that understanding, I don't see why reformed theology and Baptist couldn't be reconciled. Are you saying that under Calvinism, the elect are forced to believe in God?

Mitch

[zealyouthguy]

My understanding of soul liberty is that Baptists believe every person (whether saved or unsaved) has the right to choose what he/she believes. That person is also accountable to God for those beliefs. Based on that understanding, I don't see why reformed theology and Baptist couldn't be reconciled. Are you saying that under Calvinism, the elect are forced to believe in God?

Mitch

Calvinism believes in Irresistible Grace, you tell me.

Since grace is undeserved by any person, Irresistible Grace teaches that when the Spirit of God is sent to change a person's heart, that person cannot resist the change. This is when the Spirit of God applies the work of Christ to the soul. This does not mean that the person is unwilling to be changed because the Spirit of God is "fighting against them", rather the Spirit changes the heart of stone to beat as a heart of flesh. The change opens the eyes of the spiritually blind to the work of Christ. It is that which the Spirit of God does on his own, previous to any act of man. The Spirit of God will accomplish what He is sent out to do and will not be frustrated in His work of changing the sinner's heart. There are two types of calling upon people, external and internal. The external calling is the preaching of the Word to men's physical ears. The internal is the Spirit of God changing the heart to respond inwardly to the Gospel message. This is the means by which the blood of Christ is applied to the heart and conversion takes place. Here is where the Spirit of God alone draws men to Christ. The Spirit of God then causes the heart of the sinner to be willing to repent of his sins, believe on the Lord Jesus and come to Christ.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/TULIP/TULIP.htm


How does THAT fit with Soul Liberty?

[dwayner79]

huh? Are you serious?

Forgive me, I seem to be suffering from terminology discrepancy syndrome. There are two things attributed to this phrase (at least). The first is people being robots (in all manners). I have never considered this a baptist distinctive as so much of Christendom believes this. The second, after some googling seems to be wrapped up by this:

Individual soul liberty and responsibility

Every man by nature possesses the right of private judgment in the interpretation of the Scriptures, and in all religious concerns; it is his privilege to read and explain the Bible for himself, without dictation from, or dependence on, any one, being responsible to God alone for his use of the sacred truth.

Every man has the right to hold such religious opinions as he believes the Bible teaches, without harm or hindrance from any one on that account, so long as he does not intrude upon, or interfere with, the rights of others by doing so.

All men have the right, not only to believe, but also to profess and openly declare, whatever religious opinions they may entertain, providing they be not contrary to common morality, and do no injustice to others.

All men possess the common right to worship God according to the teachings of the Scriptures, as they understand them, without hindrance or molestation, so long as they do not injure or interfere with the rights of others by so doing.
Quoted from The New Directory for Baptist Churches Written by: Edward T. Hiscox (1894)

The individual, born again believer, has within himself the Holy Spirit, (John 14:17, Romans 8:9) which is fully capable to teach the truth of the Word of God to that individual (John 14:26). It is not that there is no need for teachers in the church, for God has certainly placed these in the body of Christ for that purpose (Ephesians 4:11-12); however, God ultimately imparts truth to the heart of the individual and that person is responsible as well as accountable for that truth.

Disregarding the fact that so many baptists do not allow for the practice of such, if this is truly a "Baptist Distinctive" it has nothing to do with salvation, and therefore is not mutually exclusive to the doctrine of election.

[speerjp1]

Soul Liberty = having the freedom in Christ to serve God individually as leads us according to his word.

The first act of any Christian in the name of "soul liberty" is salvation.

Any doctrine that would hinder an individual from salvation is indeed irreconcilable.

[chev1958]

Dwayner put into words what I was trying to say - individual soul liberty (believing what you want to believe) is separate from sovereign grace (God's choosing of the elect). I'm not Calvinist by any means, and I'm not going to ask my Calvinistic co-worker, because the conversations get pretty heated, but I can see how a Calvinist would see the two as mutually exclusive.

Of course, if one really believes in sovereign grace, then why would God allow the elect to believe what they want after He chose them to be saved?

Mitch

[dwayner79]

Dwayner put into words what I was trying to say - individual soul liberty (believing what you want to believe) is separate from sovereign grace (God's choosing of the elect). I'm not Calvinist by any means, and I'm not going to ask my Calvinistic co-worker, because the conversations get pretty heated, but I can see how a Calvinist would see the two as mutually exclusive.

Of course, if one really believes in sovereign grace, then why would God allow the elect to believe what they want after He chose them to be saved?

Mitch

I do believe that last statement shows a misunderstanding. From a Calvinist's POV, the "Work of God" in revealing the nature of God to an individual "forces" a change in belief, but that belief is still the person's. Said differently, when you come face to face with God, you have to change your belief. Its a revelation of truth. Like Mitch said, a calvinist would not think the two need to be mutually exclusive.

[Psalms18_28]

Isn't reformed theology is mostly about God promise to Isreal (Jews) no longer apply to them because Christians took their place as the choosen ones? Or am I thinking of something else?

[MilkmanDan]

"reformed baptist"

Whats a reformed Baptist? :puzzled:

[dwayner79]

Isn't reformed theology is mostly about God promise to Isreal (Jews) no longer apply to them because Christians took their place as the choosen ones? Or am I thinking of something else?

part of reformed theology is that promises/rules made to Israel that were not directly addressed in the NT still apply to Christians. It is one of my main issues with Reformed doctrine as I believe the Bible teaches the old system was completely replaced by the new. Another part of the system of theology is the acceptance of calvenism. They are related, actually, but the tie that binds them is too detailed for me to put down in this post... It would take digging out some books ;-)

[zealyouthguy]

Isn't reformed theology is mostly about God promise to Isreal (Jews) no longer apply to them because Christians took their place as the choosen ones? Or am I thinking of something else?

No, that's covenant theology.

[dwayner79]

I've always considered covenant theology as a subset of reformed... perhaps I should rethink that.

[dwayner79]

I suppose technically, Covenant theology and reformed theology are both subsets of Calvinism...

Sorry thinking with my fingers...