"Reformed Theology" and "Baptist" should be irreconcilable.

[Wee D'Arcy's Mum]

It sounds like a couple of people are twisting the tulip to make it fit Baptist beliefs when what they say is not really what tulip is saying, from what I understand of what others wrote. God convicts the whole world not only the ones he wants in heaven, which is what Calvinists believe. I had another group of Christians from another site come visit last month and one is a Calvinist. He said that we all are headed to hell and some of us have been lucky to be the elect and don't go to Hell.

I have a neighbour/Friend who wants to stop going to the IFB Church because its so far away and the only time we are around born again Christians is at the service on sunday and thursday. We have no car and everyone lives on the other end of town about 3 city buses away, about 1.5 hours if we went and visited them. So she wants to meet people in the area. Both of us have no family here and she moved here 2 years ago and I 3 years ago. I like my IFB Church and am going to continue going.

Well you may be wondering where I am going with this. I told her I would go with her to churches in the area to help. One was a Reformed Presbyterian Church that follows the Westminster Confession of Faith. I know nothing of what the Westminster confession is or what Reformed Presbyterian is. She went to 2 services and I went to one. We started the ladies bible study, she went to 3 I went to 2 and realized in the last one I was disagreeing with everything. My friend had not even caught what I had, she has fibromyalgia so can have a lot of mental fatigue. I told her if she wanted to continue that I would not and my reasons why but she had to make her own decision. She decided based on what I said she would not return.

The thing that shocked me is that I looked at the Westminster confession, did not read the whole thing glanced on one page and they believe that an elect baby when it dies goes to heaven ----- meaning I guess that one that is not elect goes to hell. does that mean that aborted babies are all the same by their form of logic, that some go to hell?

The bible study was on Godliness and Righteousness --Romans chapter one 14-25, 28-32.

(Romans 1:28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

When we read this verse the woman leading the study said that this verse shows that if we don't study God's word and memorize it that he will give us over to reprobate minds. I told my friend that that in context to the chapter That what I think it says is that those who hear the gospel, reject it and want to follow their own ways not God's but then realized that someone who is a Calvinist would say that we can not make that choice to Follow God unless we are the elect. For the life of me I dont know how this woman read what she read into it.

Another one was list reasons why Paul and we should not be ashamed of the gospel of Christ. Is there anything which we should be ashamed about as Christians?

I said that it says only one message saves, that the gospel is the Power of God for Salvation for everyone who believes and the gospel is the expression of God's power.
That in verse 17 that I thought faith to faith meant we first had the faith to believe then daily we grow in faith. She said not that is not what its saying but that: well I did not write it down because it made no since to me, so if I can sort of remember it had to do with how we live and treat others, again I can not see that in verse 17.
But I guess me saying 1 is the power to save, 2- saves everyone who believes,3 God's righteousness, 4- the response of faith , received by faith alone So because of this we decided not to go back. She is down to 2 Churches in the area, one is a bible chapel(gospel hall) the other is Anabaptist from Eastern Europe and is much more conservative then the IFB they believe in no jewelry, no makeup, men on one side and women on the other side of the Church, head coverings in the service and when they go swimming that the men and women are in separate areas at a beach. I am glad I went with her to be able to tell her that the reformed Church is so different from what we have ever been taught. no point being at a study if you are not going to learn anything and be in disagreement all the time.

So I guess?? they believe that God only sends his Holy Spirit to convict those who he has selected to be of the Elect?

(Romans 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


(Romans 1:17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

(Romans 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

(Romans 1:19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

(Romans 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[heartstrings]

Sorry, I don't see anything in those verses about the Holy Spirit drawing men to Christ......or am I missing something? :puzzled:

Sojourner,
That's how the Holy Spirit convicts....
Jhn 16:8
And when he is come, The Holy Spirit lives in the hearts of saved people, He must work through saved people
he will reprove transitive verb
1: to scold or correct usually gently or with kindly intent
2: to express disapproval of
the world "the world" is everybody
of sin, The Holy Spirit must show you that you are a sinner
and of righteousness, The Holy Spirit lets you know that God is holy, righteous, and He loves you and Jesus died for you
and of judgment: To be saved, there must be something to be saved from. So, the Holy Spirit also lets you know that you are bound for Hell.

Every person who gets saved must realize these three things.
Felix, the governor, was being drawn by the Holy Spirit, and he rejected.

[Wee D'Arcy's Mum]

Sojourner,
That's how the Holy Spirit convicts....
Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, The Holy Spirit lives in the hearts of saved people, He must work through saved people
he will reprove transitive verb
1: to scold or correct usually gently or with kindly intent
2: to express disapproval of
the world "the world" is everybody
of sin, The Holy Spirit must show you that you are a sinner
and of righteousness, The Holy Spirit lets you know that God is holy, righteous, and He loves you and Jesus died for you
and of judgment: To be saved, there must be something to be saved from. So, the Holy Spirit also lets you know that you are bound for Hell.

Every person who gets saved must realize these three things.
Felix, the governor, was being drawn by the Holy Spirit, and he rejected.

But just because Calvinism has a partial truth does not mean they are right because their concept of what they say is not at all what other Christians are saying. Because would it not be by their logic that God would only use his spirit to draw those who he has elected for salvation therefore one would not reject God because they were chosen for salvation? I know one friend who is reformed who said if someone has died and was not a Christian and died before they had a chance to become one but where of the elect they would not be going to hell.

[Jerry]

I know one friend who is reformed who said if someone has died and was not a Christian and died before they had a chance to become one but where of the elect they would not be going to hell.

That's so ridiculous! Even looking at it from their wrong perspective, why would not God keep that person alive until they made that choice? Doesn't make any sense - just someone determined to hold on to their false doctrine at all costs.

[John the Baptist]

=heartstrings wrote

Absolutely.
All five points are false doctrine. Since it misrepresents God's character, debases His holiness and denies the true nature of His love, it is a wicked blasphemy against God, and those who teach it to others are false teachers. The "Jesus" of Calvinism is another Jesus....Calvinism is another gospel.

There are many Calvinist that are godly people. Be careful not to speak evil of the people of God.Calvinism is not blasphemy. You may not agree with their interpretation, which is fine. But don't speak evil of them just because they hold a different interpretation.

God Bless
John

[Wee D'Arcy's Mum]

That's so ridiculous! Even looking at it from their wrong perspective, why would not God keep that person alive until they made that choice? Doesn't make any sense - just someone determined to hold on to their false doctrine at all costs.

Exactly that would have been a better answer. I was questioning the death penalty in the states that if the person spent life in prison perhaps they would be witnessed to and saved she said what I said above. But then if they think that baby's go to hell if they are not the elect then I guess this is not all that surprising.

[heartstrings]

There are many Calvinist that are godly people. Be careful not to speak evil of the people of God.Calvinism is not blasphemy. You may not agree with their interpretation, which is fine. But don't speak evil of them just because they hold a different interpretation.

God Bless
John

Calvinism is lie, hatched by the powers of darkness.
SOme people have been taught a lie and beleive it because they don't know any better.
But sir, you have been shown truth from the Word of God, which you choose to ignore.
If you are a pastor, teaching this false doctrine to your people, that makes you a false teacher.
That would put you in very grave danger, sir. You would be better off being a Muslim or something, than misrepresenting God. If you misrepresent Jesus, then you have the wrong Jesus. The real Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for every man, woman, and child who has lived or ever will live.

[Sojourner]

Sojourner,
That's how the Holy Spirit convicts....
Jhn 16:8
And when he is come, The Holy Spirit lives in the hearts of saved people, He must work through saved people
he will reprove transitive verb
1: to scold or correct usually gently or with kindly intent
2: to express disapproval of
the world "the world" is everybody
of sin, The Holy Spirit must show you that you are a sinner
and of righteousness, The Holy Spirit lets you know that God is holy, righteous, and He loves you and Jesus died for you
and of judgment: To be saved, there must be something to be saved from. So, the Holy Spirit also lets you know that you are bound for Hell.

Every person who gets saved must realize these three things.
Felix, the governor, was being drawn by the Holy Spirit, and he rejected.

Being reproved of righteousness, sin and judgment is not the same thing as being drawn by the Spirit of God. It certainly includes that, but that is not all in involves. Felix no doubt was under conviction, but do not add to Scripture.

[Sojourner]

What about "all" have sinned and come short of the glory of God",does that mean"men of all nations or all kinds of people?? Or does it mean just what it says?Ill take God at his word that he means all. All means all in John 12:32"And I,if I be lifted up from the earth will draw ALL men unto me",Again Ill take God at His word all means all

If you believe in irresistable grace,then do you believe in limited atonement? Because you cant have one without the other.If you believe all means elect from all kinds of people,do you believe 'the world' in john 3;16 means different elect and not all people?So if you believe in irresistable grace,I guess you believe that Jesus didnt die for all men?
It is God's will for us not to sin.Do we meet that standard?We (saved people) can and choose not to do God's will even when he convicts us,so only saved people can resist his convicting power??There are lots of scripture telling us how we can limit the work of the Spirit in our lives,so only a saved person can reject God's convicting power?How come irresistable grace doesnt work on saved people? So God has the power to make us believe(irresistable grace) but he doesnt have the power to make us obey him after we get saved?Do we only have free will after salvation?

Now lets look at your scripture proof that God only draws those he has predestined to save and the rest he chooses not to draw....Every IFB believes that you cant be saved unless the Holy Spirit convicts the sinner of sin,righteousness and judgement,drawing.

Its pretty straight forward, John 6:37"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me"..does it say,all that the Father draws shall come to me? No it doesnt. "So,those who are drawn to Christ will believe on him"......are nowhere to be found in the bible,those are your words.

God's word-"No man can come to me except the Father who sent me draw him" Doesnt say all that are drawn get saved.
the last half of the verse in John 6:44"and I will raise him up the last day".Doesnt say all that I draw will be saved and raised,does it? Its clear here, and everwhere else in the Bible,these verses refer to those who actually come to Chrsit.Its clear that this text nor any prove irresistable grace.

45"It is written in the prophets And they shall be taught of God Every man therefore that hath heard,and hath learned of the Father cometh unto me." again it doesnt say anything about grace being irresistable..every man that hears,and responds will be saved.

Hebrews 10:39"But we are not of them that draw back unto perdition,but of them that believe to the saving of the soul"
How can a man be drawn back to perdition,not have been drawn to the saving of the soul in the first place???

Wow.....I hardly know where to begin with this one.

So...... does "all" always mean all? Does the "world" always mean every person on earth?
Well, let's just see...... 1Cor. 15:22,23 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Obviously the "all" here refers only to those who are in Christ.

Romans 8:31,33 "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

The context of this passage indicates the "all" to be those who are saved. To say otherwise really does an injustice to the context. There are many places in Scripture where "all" simply refers to a multitude, and where "world" does not always mean the whole world.

How about John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

It does not say here that He can take away the sin of the world, if only the world will believe on Him, or that He has the capacity to take away the sin of the world. There are no if's, and's, or but's here. So if He "taketh away the sin of the world", why isn't every person saved?

John 10:14,15 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

[Psalms18_28]

Wee D'Arcy's Mum wrote:
I know one friend who is reformed who said if someone has died and was not a Christian and died before they had a chance to become one but where of the elect they would not be going to hell.

If someone rejected Christ before they die, it pretty much tells us who their god is.

[Wee D'Arcy's Mum]

If someone rejected Christ before they die, it pretty much tells us who their god is.

I had heard that there are hyper calvinists who do not witness because if God chooses then they feel no need to witness. Its easy to see how they came to that conclusion. In my mind I think of how people could abuse others by saying that they may as well go home and enjoy themselves because they can not see them being the elect or others who are rebellious may then think "well whats the use of being good because they may think that if they are not a the elect that they may as well have fun before going to hell." They whole premise of their belief is so strange that was why after a couple times at the bible study I realized it was not a study I wanted to do nor that it was a church my friend who I had talked previously about should go to. I hope she will change her mind and want to go back to the IFB church.

[heartstrings]

Being reproved of righteousness, sin and judgment is not the same thing as being drawn by the Spirit of God. It certainly includes that, but that is not all in involves. Felix no doubt was under conviction, but do not add to Scripture.

Felix was being drawn by the Holy Spirit.

Sir, Before you can get saved, you must be confronted with your sin, the righteousness of God, and judgement of God. That is how the Holy Spirit deals with a person's heart.

1. Sin
You must realize your need. You must realize and admit that you are a sinner. If you don't you cannot get saved.

2. Righteousness
The Holy Spirit always lifts up and reveals Jesus. When you are being confronted with the awesome love of Jesus and you realize that He loves and cares for you personally, and died for you to pay for your sin, you are being drawn by the Holy Spirit.
You must realize that Jesus was perfect, holy and righteous and paid for your sin debt on Calvary, because of His wonderful love for you personally.

3. Judgement Realizing that you are a sinner, and being confronted with the righteousness of God you will realize that you deserve Hell. You must repent of your sin or go to Hell when you die.

I don't know of any other way the Holy Spirit draws sinners.

[Jerry]

Sojourner, it seems like you are turning one part of the Bible against itself.

The Bible teaches Jesus died for the whole world, died for all, even false teachers (2 Peter 2:1), but that death, shed blood, ransom, salvation is not applicable to anyone until they trust the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Therefore, those that refuse to trust in Him will not have His righteousness credited to their account.

No contradictions - salvation was made freely available to all, as a gift to whosoever will - but on God's terms (ie. repentance and faith in Jesus Christ).

For Whom Did Christ Die?

He died:

1. For all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2. For every man

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

3. For the world

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

4. For the sins of the whole world

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

5. For the ungodly

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

6. For false teachers

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

7. For many

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

8. For Israel

John 11:50-51 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

9. For the church

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

10. For me

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

(I am not sure where I originally copied this list from.)

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

Wow.....I hardly know where to begin with this one.

So...... does "all" always mean all? Does the "world" always mean every person on earth?
Well, let's just see...... 1Cor. 15:22,23 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Obviously the "all" here refers only to those who are in Christ.

Romans 8:31,33 "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

The context of this passage indicates the "all" to be those who are saved. To say otherwise really does an injustice to the context. There are many places in Scripture where "all" simply refers to a multitude, and where "world" does not always mean the whole world.

How about John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

It does not say here that He can take away the sin of the world, if only the world will believe on Him, or that He has the capacity to take away the sin of the world. There are no if's, and's, or but's here. So if He "taketh away the sin of the world", why isn't every person saved?

John 10:14,15 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

See Jery's post,he answers your objections that God loves all and Jesus died for all..

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

1 Cor 5:22-23 God says that the all in this passage means saved people,but it doesnt say what you want it to say,It doesnt say "those who dont get saved were choosen to be lost." Because God tells us what "all" means in this scripture doesnt mean that Jesus didnt die for those who will reject him.

Again in Rom.8:31 does say that Jesus was delivered for saved people,but again it doesnt say what you want it to that"Jesus wasnt delivered up for the lost." Because God word declares here that Jesus was delivered for saved people doesnt mean he wasnt for those who reject him,again you are coming up with something thats not there.

John 1:29 Jesus did take away sin.Notice that he said sin.Jesus died for sin itself,thus opening the way to whosever will can come.But not all people receive Jesus as their Saviour,its only efectual if you choose to recieve Jesus.On a side note,this is why ALL babies that die are in heaven,because their sin was paid for and they have yet to reach an age where they are accountable because they dont have the capacity to know what is right and wrong and to choose to sin when they know its wrong.Calvanism on the other hand teaches that only "elected" babies that die go to heaven,the rest are in hell because God choose to hate them.Rom. ch 5 is a good place that teaches this also.

John 10:14,15-again it doesnt say what you want it to.It doesnt say that he laid down his life for "only" those who get saved.Because he laid down his life for His sheep(saved people) doesnt mean he didnt for those who choose to reject Him.
Your trying to make the bible fit into a man made philosophy called Calvanism.It will never fit because the bible doesnt teach that the TULUP is the gospel,it proves that the TULIP is not the gospel.