Women being pastors Should they really?

[trc123]

As to women working outside the home...when I get married' date=' I honestly do not want my wife working a job, unless it is strictly needed.[/quote']

Let me help you out my friend so that you are prepared for that blessed day that you honor some woman with marrying her............she will be "working a job" when she stays in the home and works her knuckles to the bone on your home and children. It is work, whether it is at home our outside the home.

NEVER, EVER, EVER refer to anything your wife does in your home and with your children as anything but the toughest job in the world!

That and NEVER refer to her as a housewife, she won't be marrying a house!

Peace! TC

[IM4given]

[quote="trc123"][quote="Crushmaster"]As to women working outside the home...when I get married, I honestly do not want my wife working a job, unless it is strictly needed.[/quote]

Let me help you out my friend so that you are prepared for that blessed day that you honor some woman with marrying her............she will be "working a job" when she stays in the home and works her knuckles to the bone on your home and children. It is work, whether it is at home our outside the home.

NEVER, EVER, EVER refer to anything your wife does in your home and with your children as anything but the toughest job in the world!

That and NEVER refer to her as a housewife, she won't be marrying a house!

Peace! TC[/quote]

:amen: :goodpost: :clap:

[heartstrings]

[quote="trc123"][quote="Crushmaster"]As to women working [size=150]outside the home...[/size]when I get married, I honestly do not want my wife working a job, unless it is strictly needed.[/quote]

Let me help you out my friend so that you are prepared for that blessed day that you honor some woman with marrying her............she will be "working a job" when she stays in the home and works her knuckles to the bone on your home and children. It is work, whether it is at home our outside the home.

NEVER, EVER, EVER refer to anything your wife does in your home and with your children as anything but the toughest job in the world!

That and NEVER refer to her as a housewife, she won't be marrying a house!

Peace! TC[/quote]

Ummmmmm......He said "outside the home" and that is what he was refering to when he said "working a job".

When I worked an hourly job, sometimes a woman would ask me (usually in a group of other women) ; "does your wife work"? She already knew the answer but was baiting. I found out right quick not to give the short answer "no". What you say is something like: "my wife works at home" or "she doesn't work a paying job". That isn't what they wanted you to say but it usually ends right there.

BTW, the Woman in Proverbs 31, was an entrepreneur.....NOT an employee. And because of her conduct, her household was well off (she had servants) and her husband was a well respected man in his community.

[trc123]

[quote="heartstrings"][quote="trc123"][quote="Crushmaster"]As to women working [size=150]outside the home...[/size]when I get married, I honestly do not want my wife working a job, unless it is strictly needed.[/quote]

Let me help you out my friend so that you are prepared for that blessed day that you honor some woman with marrying her............she will be "working a job" when she stays in the home and works her knuckles to the bone on your home and children. It is work, whether it is at home our outside the home.

NEVER, EVER, EVER refer to anything your wife does in your home and with your children as anything but the toughest job in the world!

That and NEVER refer to her as a housewife, she won't be marrying a house!

Peace! TC[/quote]

Ummmmmm......He said "outside the home" and that is what he was refering to when he said "working a job".

When I worked an hourly job, sometimes a woman would ask me (usually in a group of other women) ; "does your wife work"? She already knew the answer but was baiting. I found out right quick not to give the short answer "no". What you say is something like: "my wife works at home" or "she doesn't work a paying job". That isn't what they wanted you to say but it usually shuts their mouth.

BTW, the Woman in Proverbs 31, was an entrepreneur.....NOT an employee. And because of her conduct, her household was well off (she had servants) and her husband was a well respected man in his community.[/quote]

I always answered that question by telling them, "Yes, she works very hard and very long hours in our home and with our children." And you are right, that pretty much shut down the baiting and debating for that subject!

[JerryNumbers]

[quote="Crushmaster"][quote="copper"]I see there are a host of replies on this and I am ashamed to admit I've not read all of them. But I did want to extend kudos to the poster of this thread for using scripture to ask her questions. And also to those who answered, again, using scripture. Jesus said to search the scriptures - and you did.

The Bible is crystal clear on this subject. Timothy and Titus give the qualifications for a Pastor and women do not meet those qualifications.

They do meet qualifications to be judges, as in the case of Deborah. They do meet qualifications to be salespeople, work outside the home types, running households and families, etc., from Proverbs 31. We are to be helpers to the man, which means we need to be smart, intelligent, loving, learned, trained and able to help. A dumb woman is useless and there is not a single scripture ordering women to be anything less than ALL they can be.

The family model in the Bible is clear and if followed, works. But, it takes the man to submit to God and the woman to submit to the man. Submitting isn't just for women however, unlike how many men would like to tenor that. :) He has to go first. And if he fails to do that and she missteps, as in the case of Adam and Eve, his first response should not be to blame her because HE failed.

If there is a problem in that family - the wife is loose, the children are rebellious or disobedient, etc., the ENTIRE PROBLEM rests squarely on the shoulders of the man. HE is the one in charge.

Far too much focus is limelighted on the woman's behavior and far too less focus is limelighted on the man's neglect and laziness for not being the head of family, as God intended him to be.

How many submitted men do YOU know?[/quote]
...Deborah is an example I have gotten many headaches in on my Internet debates amongst Christians - both for justification of women in the military (though she took no place in combat; the Scriptures make this clear) and for women in governmental positions (i.e. Sarah Palin).
Now, the rest of the Scriptures make it clear it is man's duty to be the leaders. Titus 2:4-5 also makes it clear women are to be keepers at home.

As to women working outside the home...when I get married, I honestly do not want my wife working a job, unless it is strictly needed. However, the majority of the "need" for women working outside the home today is more greed than literal need - the "American Dream", so to speak.
If I have misunderstood what you are saying, I apologize. But this is what I gathered from your post.
God bless,
Crushmaster.[/quote]

I've heard the American dream mentions so much I dislike the phrase, it seems to be tied together with the lust of the flesh. The American dream just don't seem to match the life of the Christians family.

And for the most part, most women who work outside the home, they do so where they, the family, can have many more worldly possession along with higher quality possession, that is wants, to fulfill their wants.

I agree fully with this statment.

>

To many have just grown to accept the worlds way in this matter.

To many seem as if they want to be independently wealthy, to the point they would not have to depend on no one, not even God.

[JerryNumbers]

[quote="trc123"][quote="Crushmaster"]As to women working outside the home...when I get married, I honestly do not want my wife working a job, unless it is strictly needed.[/quote]

Let me help you out my friend so that you are prepared for that blessed day that you honor some woman with marrying her............she will be "working a job" when she stays in the home and works her knuckles to the bone on your home and children. It is work, whether it is at home our outside the home.

NEVER, EVER, EVER refer to anything your wife does in your home and with your children as anything but the toughest job in the world!

That and NEVER refer to her as a housewife, she won't be marrying a house!

Peace! TC[/quote]

That is not what he said. Not even close.

I might add, you post was clearly uncalled for.

[copper]

That was the loveliest banter I've ever read.

Well done.

Actually, there is much to be said for following the Word of God. We aren't the mysogist muslims - forcing our god to restrict women to subservient roles and allowing them to be mental mutants for our pleasure. Women are JUST as important and JUST as vital and men - and there are no scriptures saying otherwise.

Women can work outside the home. Inside the home. Married. Widowed. These things are immaterial. The ONLY thing a woman cannot do is ... disobey her husband. Read that again. If the husband wants her to work in a drugstore as a cashier, then she can. If he says, she can't - then she can't. There are absolutely NO RULES whatsoever delieanating what types of jobs, positions, genders over her, etc.

She is to be submitted to her husband.

Its quite simple really.

But here's the catch... so is he.

HE HAS TO BE SUBMITTED 100% TO GOD.

You never hear that little tidbit. You always hear the man is the king of his castle but, never that God should be the King - PERIOD. How many men demand their wives stay in a role of subservience and yet, they never have devotions with her? Never teach her? Never pray? Read their Bibles? They think if they can boss her around they are winning the fight and are in the right?

NONSENSE.

Until a man is on his knees in prayer - he is not a man and is not qualified to be a husband.

[Guest Guest]

[quote]We aren't the mysogist muslims - forcing our god to restrict women to subservient roles and allowing them to be mental mutants for our pleasure. Women are JUST as important and JUST as vital and men - and there are no scriptures saying otherwise.[/quote]

I have not heard a single person here suggest the former or disagree with the later statement: nor do I expect to. :lol:

[quote]Women can work outside the home. Inside the home. Married. Widowed. These things are immaterial. The ONLY thing a woman cannot do is ... disobey her husband. Read that again. If the husband wants her to work in a drugstore as a cashier, then she can. If he says, she can't - then she can't. There are absolutely NO RULES whatsoever delieanating what types of jobs, positions, genders over her, etc.[/quote]

There may not be a biblical command forbidding a woman to work outside the home period, but there is indeed a biblical pattern that inside the home is to be the primary focus of the woman. I think you would agree it would generally be a bit unfair to have the women "guide the house" and work an outside job too. :wink


[color=#0000FF]"1 Timothy 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, [u]guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.[/u]"[/color]


[quote]She is to be submitted to her husband.

Its quite simple really.

But here's the catch... so is he.

HE HAS TO BE SUBMITTED 100% TO GOD.

You never hear that little tidbit. You always hear the man is the king of his castle but, never that God should be the King - PERIOD. How many men demand their wives stay in a role of subservience and yet, they never have devotions with her? Never teach her? Never pray? Read their Bibles? They think if they can boss her around they are winning the fight and are in the right?

NONSENSE.[/quote]

I agree with that, with the exception that I do hear it preached at least as often as I hear it preached that a woman should submit to her husband. Matter of fact, my pastor addressed it in one of his sermons today, how is that? :Green

[trc123]

[quote="Jerry80871852"][quote="trc123"][quote="Crushmaster"]As to women working outside the home...when I get married, I honestly do not want my wife working a job, unless it is strictly needed.[/quote]

Let me help you out my friend so that you are prepared for that blessed day that you honor some woman with marrying her............she will be "working a job" when she stays in the home and works her knuckles to the bone on your home and children. It is work, whether it is at home our outside the home.

NEVER, EVER, EVER refer to anything your wife does in your home and with your children as anything but the toughest job in the world!

That and NEVER refer to her as a housewife, she won't be marrying a house!

Peace! TC[/quote]

That is not what he said. Not even close.

I might add, you post was clearly uncalled for.[/quote]

Hey Jerry,

It was friendly advice and not said in a mean spirited way, as your post.

[futurehope]

[quote="copper"]

I disagree.

Therefore, please take this opportunity to clarify where it says that her work is done as part of the "family business." In my King James Bible, it doesn't say that. Also where it specifically says that she is not working for another man, woman or company. Again, it does not expose her employer's name.

Also, what other passages are you referring to that make this clear.

Thank you.[/quote]


Proverbs 31

10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways

[JerryNumbers]

[quote="trc123"][quote="Jerry80871852"][quote="trc123"][quote="Crushmaster"]As to women working outside the home...when I get married, I honestly do not want my wife working a job, unless it is strictly needed.[/quote]

Let me help you out my friend so that you are prepared for that blessed day that you honor some woman with marrying her............she will be "working a job" when she stays in the home and works her knuckles to the bone on your home and children. It is work, whether it is at home our outside the home.

NEVER, EVER, EVER refer to anything your wife does in your home and with your children as anything but the toughest job in the world!

That and NEVER refer to her as a housewife, she won't be marrying a house!

Peace! TC[/quote]

That is not what he said. Not even close.

I might add, you post was clearly uncalled for.[/quote]

Hey Jerry,

It was friendly advice and not said in a mean spirited way, as your post.[/quote]

I'm not mean spirited, not trying to be, it just completely confused me why you were lecturing someone about something they did not say nor imply.

To many times we seem to read into people post that which they did not post and go on and post about what was not said. Why give a person a friendly lecture on something that person did not say? They just might not need it!

I know I have done that in the past, I will quickly admit it right here in front of everyone, I've been guilty of it, but I'm trying my best to stop that, for I noticed it helps on one.

I might add, I caught myself doing that just this past Friday doing that in a reply to one of our members, thankfully I realize what I was doing and completely changed my reply.

[copper]

What you have tried to use (if I am understanding you rightly) to justify a woman as a salesperson as what a modern day salesperson is' date=' is an inaccurate interpretation. It says that she makes fine linen and sells it and that she delivers girdles to the merchant. This is talking of her as manufacturing items by herself and under hers and the authority of her husband (not working for another man).[/quote']

I'm sorry but, with all due respect, your explanation doesn't fit with the scriptures. The reader has absolutely NO idea whether this woman is working for herself, another man, another woman, a publically-held corporation, herself, the rabbi, the rabbi's wife... it simply puts forth and displays her efforts.

[HappyChristian]

[quote="copper"]
Women can work outside the home. Inside the home. Married. Widowed. These things are immaterial. The ONLY thing a woman cannot do is ... disobey her husband. Read that again. If the husband wants her to work in a drugstore as a cashier, then she can. If he says, she can't - then she can't. There are absolutely NO RULES whatsoever delieanating what types of jobs, positions, genders over her, etc.

She is to be submitted to her husband.

Its quite simple really.

But here's the catch... so is he.

HE HAS TO BE SUBMITTED 100% TO GOD.

You never hear that little tidbit. You always hear the man is the king of his castle but, never that God should be the King - PERIOD. How many men demand their wives stay in a role of subservience and yet, they never have devotions with her? Never teach her? Never pray? Read their Bibles? They think if they can boss her around they are winning the fight and are in the right?

NONSENSE.

Until a man is on his knees in prayer - he is not a man and is not qualified to be a husband.[/quote]

Gotta say it: :goodpost:

And yet I'd add...women are to be submitted to their husbands...whether or not they are to God! "as unto the Lord." When we submit to our hubbies, we are submitting as though we were submitting to God. Many people say, "but what if he tells you to...(name the sin)..." If a woman is properly submitted to her husband, either he will not ask her to do something that he knows is wrong, or she will be able to sit down with him and appeal what he has asked.

A woman is to be a help meet for her husband. And if the help needed is an outside job, that's what she should do. It's never easy, no-one said it was. But just imagine the guilt a mother would feel if things got so tight that she couldn't feed or clothe her children right...and she was being holy and not working outside the home because a man who is not her husband told her it would be sin. That's why God said a woman is to be subject to her own husband...not everyone's. And if the husband gives permission for her to work a job, and her boss is male, then her husband must watch over her and make sure she is not required to do anything he wouldn't allow. My husband does that...and I don't do anything in my job that he doesn't want me to, let me tell you!!

If a husband gives his wife permission and blessing to do something (that isn't anti-scriptural), we have no businees gainsaying it. He's her head, scripturally, not us.

[futurehope]

[quote="copper"][quote="futurehope"]What you have tried to use (if I am understanding you rightly) to justify a woman as a salesperson as what a modern day salesperson is, is an inaccurate interpretation. It says that she makes fine linen and sells it and that she delivers girdles to the merchant. This is talking of her as manufacturing items by herself and under hers and the authority of her husband (not working for another man).[/quote]

I'm sorry but, with all due respect, your explanation doesn't fit with the scriptures. The reader has absolutely NO idea whether this woman is working for herself, another man, another woman, a publically-held corporation, herself, the rabbi, the rabbi's wife... it simply puts forth and displays her efforts. [/quote]

If you understand business and history, you know exactly what these scriptures are saying. This woman is making things herself; selling them herself; and doing it in submission and service to her husband (as Proverbs 31:11-15 makes it clear this woman's focus ALWAYS is). She is in no way working for another man.

[quote="copper"]

[quote="futurehope"]This passage also makes referrence to her maidens. This obviously shows that this woman has those who serve her and work for her, not the other way around. And before anyone tries to say those maidens work outside the home, look at the definition. They aren't married. [/quote]

Not sure if you had a point here or not but, she is obviously a businesswoman, who is employing servants or maidens in this case. It doesn't say her children, so it isn't employing members of her own household, it is single, unmarried women. Maidens, who some might say, appear to be living there at the home with her.

Now according to some, this would be wrong. Because those maidens would then fall under the authority of this businesswoman and through her, that businesswoman's husband. And some believe that no woman should have any male authority over her in any capacity - directly or indirectly.

[/quote]

No MARRIED woman is to be under the authority of any man but her husband and the church. These women are single and it is not wrong (that's why it is in God's word - if you needed clarification). ALL women are to be under the authority of and in submission to A man. Whether it be their father, their husband, or, as in the case of these maidens, their master as a servant.

[quote="copper"]

In fact, if you look at Proverbs 31, what is the husband doing throughout this whole verse? Not much. In fact, I would be insulted if I were a man to be called a Proverbs 31 man. The only good thing he does is praise her and trusts her, and those are triggered by her efforts -not his. Aside from that, he appears to just sit around and chat with the elders while she does everything. LOL
[/quote]

No offense intended, but this statement is completely obsurd. Proverbs 31 is doesn't mention anything of the sort. As a matter of fact, the focus here is the woman and not what the man is doing, that is why his actions are not mentioned. I might add, Should he be praising her for something that she hasn't done to "trigger" it? No, I don't think a man should lie to his wife and praise her for something she hasn't done.

[quote="copper"]

Anyway, I know of some men that want to promote their non-Biblical belief that a woman cannot work outside the home, who will twist scripture in a less than truthful fashion, to make it appear that God says that women cannot work outside the home. That's a lie. It is much easier to say, [b]"No Honey, the Bible says you can't work outside the home,"[/b] instead of saying, [b]"Honey, as head of this family, and living by the model outlined in the Word of God, that I have prayed about this and it is my belief from answered prayer that God does not want you to work outside of the home."[/b] That means that the man has had to have put forth some effort in reading the word of God, communing through heartfelt prayer and meditation, and is submitted to God's Will and not his own will. That, my friend, is work! And, if Proverbs 31 is true, most men would rather just sit around and chat. :)[/quote]

IMO, I think it may be a good idea for you to spend more time following the advice you are offering to men and less time preaching at them. Never have I heard of a man truly changing because of a woman telling him how to do his job in such a crass way. I have, however, known many GODLY women that spent many hours in prayer for the men in their life and God moved His spirit on their hearts to change them.

If you would like to discuss this matter any further with me, I would ask that it be done through PMs, and with a little more respect for God's word.

Thank you and I pray that God will bless you with insight and wisdom in this matter.

Sincerely,

Futurehope


Note: I edited this post because some of the original comments were overly aggressive and inappropriately hurtful to other members. I offer my most sincere appologies to any of you that may have read it before it was edited and ask for your forgiveness. I allowed my love for truth in God's word to be turned to anger and I was wrong for posting some of the things I had. As Matt mentioned in another thread, the members deserve better than assumptions in the posts (and that's one part of what I had done).

With all sincerity,

Futurehope

[Annie]

[quote="futurehope"] No MARRIED woman is to be under the authority of any man but her husband and the church. ALL women are to be under the authority of and in submission to A man. [/quote]

Sorry to break in here, but, futurehope, I was just wondering why you think that every woman must be under the authority of A man? What Scriptures lead you to believe this?