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orvals

What doctrines do other churches practice

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That is basically my experience with Free P's, too, except that they also baptize babies and believe in a mid-trib rapture. Was that true of your church?



the pastor of the Free Pres church that I attended disagreed with the infant baptism part, and believed in pre-trib rapture. Lots of baptist churches believe mid-trib...

I don't think they believe that baptism saves the child, it's just a show that the parents are saved and will raise the child in Christian home. It's still extra-biblical though - not needed...and more tradition than anything I think, still not right, I know. If I were them I wouldn't want to do anything that appeared catholic...which infant baptism does...

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the pastor of the Free Pres church that I attended disagreed with the infant baptism part, and believed in pre-trib rapture. Lots of baptist churches believe mid-trib... Oh, I know that - it was just that mid-trib is a point that many Free P's make (especially in other countries)

I don't think they believe that baptism saves the child, it's just a show that the parents are saved and will raise the child in Christian home. It's still extra-biblical though - not needed...and more tradition than anything I think, still not right, I know. If I were them I wouldn't want to do anything that appeared catholic...which infant baptism does... I do think that many see it as similar to baby dedication (or, as someone once pointed out to me, as similar to circumcision), but how many of those kids ends up being baptized later after they are saved? I agree - I'd not want to appear to be following Catholic doctrine in baptism, either!!

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Episcopal is Anglican and one of the basic tenants of Anglicanism is that salvation comes by grace through faith. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation.


My Anglican friend told me recently that her church Anglican says that salvation is by good works and believing. They do baby baptism and confirmation like the Catholics. I have heard that there are some Anglicans that do believe in Salvation through grace but I think they are an offshot of the Anglican Church. Very confusing but typical of the times. Few say what they mean or mean what they say. Or in this case Name their means or mean their names.

Blossom

P.S. Sorry Orvals I know this isn't much help. Even those who claim to be Independent Baptist no longer hold the distinctives of Independent Baptist.

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My Anglican friend told me recently that her church Anglican says that salvation is by good works and believing. They do baby baptism and confirmation like the Catholics. I have heard that there are some Anglicans that do believe in Salvation through grace but I think they are an offshot of the Anglican Church. Very confusing but typical of the times. Few say what they mean or mean what they say. Or in this case Name their means or mean their names.

Blossom

P.S. Sorry Orvals I know this isn't much help. Even those who claim to be Independent Baptist no longer hold the distinctives of Independent Baptist.


Blossom, I just wanted to let you know a term that was given to me. I work with an Episcopalian lady whose church seems to be more Catholic than not - in other words, they support the pope, believe in works salvation (at the same time referencing Christ dying on the cross), etc. When I mentioned this out to a friend who is Anglican, he let me know that her church is more likely what is referred to as "Anglo-Catholic." I do know that this friend is saved. He knows what salvation is and Who provides it. Very likely the church your friend attends, while being labeled Anglican, falls under the category of "Anglo-Catholic."

Actually, the Episcopalian church in early America taught salvation. So, those churches that no longer do so are going back under the fold of the Catholic church -- whether they realize they are or not!!!

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Thanks for that HC . If it wasn't so serious it would be funny. My friends openly detests the Catholic Church because they excommunicated (I think is the term) her father because he married an Anglican women who refused to become catholic in order for their marriage to be recognised by the catholic church. I questioned her on her faith showing how it has come from Catholicism and showed her in the bible where we are saved by grace and not works. She said she knows she should read her bible more but the preists spend years studying it and know what they are talking about. That kind of stubborn blindness is frustating to me.

God bless
Blossom

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I would agree with you, that is very blind.

Could I suggest one thing. I find it hard to believe that your friends father was excommunicated for marring someone who is not Catholic. That is unheard of. I married a very wonderful protestant and my priest married us with absolutely no problems. And there are many Catholics in my church who are not married to Catholics either. Maybe your friend is using the wrong word to explain the situation? Maybe she doesn't understand what excommunication means?

Excommunication is considered the severest action that can be taken by the Church, and usually done only to people in high leadership roles (ie. priest, bishops, popes). And it is only done when a person actually posses a HUGE threat to a community of believers. For example, Luther was a Catholic priest, and taught things that were not Catholic. Because he had a huge influence over a large number of people, and because he refused to teach all Catholic beliefs, he was excommunicated so that he could no longer be a Catholic priest who did not teach Catholic beliefs.

Just as a side note, if it may help even a little, I'll include what the Catholic church teaches concerning what makes a marriage valid:

A valid Catholic marriage results from four elements:
(1) the spouses are free to marry;
(2) they freely exchange their consent;
(3) in consenting to marry, they have the intention to marry for life, to be faithful to one another and be open to children; and
(4) their consent is given in the presence of two witnesses and before a properly authorized Church minister.


Hope this helps relieve a little frustration.

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I'm sorry Julie, no disrespect intended, but my fustration comes from my friends refusal to search the scriptures for herself. At this point in time given what she says she believes she is lost and on her way to hell. We are told to search the scriptures, we will give an account for ourselves, right now she is trusting in false doctrines and it hurts so very much to think of my friend in hell. Not only that when I showed her the verse that clearly states we are saved by grace through faith, she still insists on believing the lie of good works salvation. The issue of excommunication you are probably right I couldn't remember that exact word I know that she said none of them has set foot back in the church and the preist threatened something when he came to visit.

Hope you have a good day.

Blossom

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oh, that is so terrible to hear. I will pray for your friend and her family.
As for you, don't give up. Gently and kindly keep doing what you are doing. Remind her that blind faith is not strong faith. Maybe ask her to do some research for you. ie: Ask her to explain what Catholics believe about marriage? or something to that effect. Better yet, ask her to show you a verse that supports the Catholic view regarding salvation.
Just some ideas, I'm convinced God never gives up on us.
God Bless,
Jules

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My Anglican friend told me recently that her church Anglican says that salvation is by good works and believing. They do baby baptism and confirmation like the Catholics. I have heard that there are some Anglicans that do believe in Salvation through grace but I think they are an offshot of the Anglican Church. Very confusing but typical of the times. Few say what they mean or mean what they say. Or in this case Name their means or mean their names.

Blossom

P.S. Sorry Orvals I know this isn't much help. Even those who claim to be Independent Baptist no longer hold the distinctives of Independent Baptist.


Just as you note in your post script, just because someone says they belong to a certain branch of christianity, does not mean that they hold to the beliefs of that branch. I have never heard of an Anglican that believes that works have anything to do with salvation. As noted by Happy, there are churches known as Anglo-Catholic that may believe in some form of justification by works, but I've never met anyone that does.

From the thirty nine articles (an outline of the Anglican faith):

XI. Of the Justification of Man.
We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification.

As I've stated previously, I believe that the only difference between Anglicans and Baptist is that we baptize babies.

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The Anglicans in the state I live in have female priests, gay priests, another one I know personally (Priest that is) went on a contikki tour through Europe and was very proud of the fact that no one on the tour picked him as the priest and felt he had done nothing to dishonour God ( admittedly that has nothing to do with anglicans and more to do with his own personal standards or lack thereof). They definately adhere to works and belief here. My friend also said they do not hold to catholic beliefs so what branch they are I have no idea but Anglicans in this state are nothing like bible believing Baptists.

I have heard of the Anglicans in the southern states are fairly down the line but I have not had anything to do with them or know anyone in that church.

I wonder how that works. I thought all Anglican churches came under the head of the Anglican church so how there can be such a diverse range of beliefs under one banner is a tad baffling. Wouldn't the head dictate what the parishes do???


Blossom

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The Anglicans in the state I live in have female priests, gay priests, another one I know personally (Priest that is) went on a contikki tour through Europe and was very proud of the fact that no one on the tour picked him as the priest and felt he had done nothing to dishonour God ( admittedly that has nothing to do with anglicans and more to do with his own personal standards or lack thereof). They definately adhere to works and belief here. My friend also said they do not hold to catholic beliefs so what branch they are I have no idea but Anglicans in this state are nothing like bible believing Baptists.

I have heard of the Anglicans in the southern states are fairly down the line but I have not had anything to do with them or know anyone in that church.

I wonder how that works. I thought all Anglican churches came under the head of the Anglican church so how there can be such a diverse range of beliefs under one banner is a tad baffling. Wouldn't the head dictate what the parishes do???


Blossom


Blossom: sadly, we are like almost any other Christian faith. The beliefs and practices of the individual churches vary widely. There is no "head" of the Anglican Church. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the figure head of the Anglican Communion (the world wide Anglican Church of which the Episcopal Church is but one member), but he is just that, a figure head, with no dictatorial authority. Who the priest is and what practices are used are up to the local church. However, I don't see how one can believe that works have anything to do with salvation. That is specifically addressed by the thirty-nine articles, which is the universal statement of faith for the entire Anglican Communion. Maybe your friend is some off shoot that is out of communion (if the church labels itself "Anglican" rather than "Episcopal" in the U.S., then it is not a member of the Anglican Communion and is some off shoot that has rejected the ancient church).

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Thanks for that ptwild. I will question my friend about this but I'm sure she'll say that's for the priests to decide.

Yours In Christ

Blossom

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Thanks for that ptwild. I will question my friend about this but I'm sure she'll say that's for the priests to decide.

Yours In Christ

Blossom


Why don't you pm me your friend's phone number or email address. I too would like to discuss this with her. If she is spreading this stuff, and is an actual Episcopalian, then I would like to determine if a) she just isn't informed enough about the church, or B) her church is teaching doctrine contrary to the faith.

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Hi Ptwild,

My friend would not approve of her number being given out and she wouldn't be able to answer anyway. When I have questioned her in the past she gives a blank look and says it's up to the priests. However the female priest I use to teach with at the school I worked with, she no longer preaches, I'm not sure if it is because of her divorce or what but it is not spoken of anymore. The gay priests have been in our newspaper reports and the other guy was the husband of a lady my sister use to teach with.

I did go online and find this though and it would seem it is not episopalin. In order to get the actual cannons you have to email a particular person who you'll find on this site. It does explain how they are under a banner but each diocesse is different. I think they called it bottom up church orientation.

http://www.anglican.org.au/index.cfm?SID=2&SSID=6

My frustrtation with my friend is that she will not take responsibility for what she believes but lays it all on the preists, I will give her credit for her faith. Nothing fazes her she has tremendous upheaval in her life and through it all she has believed in God's hand and not worried about a thing. That is what attracted me to her in the first place was her unwavering faith, but when you question her she has no real bibical basis just that she believes.

Anyway hope this answers your questions.

God Bless

Blossom

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Hi Ptwild,

My friend would not approve of her number being given out and she wouldn't be able to answer anyway. When I have questioned her in the past she gives a blank look and says it's up to the priests. However the female priest I use to teach with at the school I worked with, she no longer preaches, I'm not sure if it is because of her divorce or what but it is not spoken of anymore. The gay priests have been in our newspaper reports and the other guy was the husband of a lady my sister use to teach with.

I did go online and find this though and it would seem it is not episopalin. In order to get the actual cannons you have to email a particular person who you'll find on this site. It does explain how they are under a banner but each diocesse is different. I think they called it bottom up church orientation.

http://www.anglican.org.au/index.cfm?SID=2&SSID=6

My frustrtation with my friend is that she will not take responsibility for what she believes but lays it all on the preists, I will give her credit for her faith. Nothing fazes her she has tremendous upheaval in her life and through it all she has believed in God's hand and not worried about a thing. That is what attracted me to her in the first place was her unwavering faith, but when you question her she has no real bibical basis just that she believes.

Anyway hope this answers your questions.

God Bless

Blossom


The link you have posted is to the Anglican Church of Australia, which is in communion with the See of Canterbury. The Episcopal Church is the the U.S what the Anglican Church of Australia is to Australia. Different name, same (supposedly) beliefs. They are bound to the 39 articles just like Episcopalians are. The Anglican Church is world wide. It has different names in different countries. In the U.S. it is called the Episcopal Church, in mainland Europe it is called the Old Catholic Church, in England it is called the Church of England, in Canada it is called the Church of Canada . . .

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Hi Ptwild

The Uniqueness of the Australian Church

The Anglican Church of Australia differs from other churches in the Anglican Communion in ways that can be easily overlooked.

The Church of England in England is part of the State machinery and performs some governmental functions as part of that machinery. Clergy discipline is performed by ecclesiastical courts that are part of the State system. Its bishops are formally appointed by the cathedral chapters, but the government has considerable input into the appointments. Diocesan synods are of little significance and decisions are taken at national or provincial level. Consequently, although the English church has officers with identical names to their Australian counterparts, considerable differences often exist and so they often cannot be equated.

The Episcopal Church of the USA (ECUSA) is different again. The ECUSA has 97 dioceses plus a further 16 Anglican groups who have parted from it for some reason or other over the past century and a half. The ECUSA is governed by a General Convention, which is organised in two houses and sits for two weeks. The size of the church means that lay membership tends not to make a large contribute to decision making because of insufficient continuity.

The bit I've bolded is stating that your Episcopal Church is different. Is this just on a governing basis but the beliefs are meant to be the same???

When I went to my friend's church's website it directed me to the page I gave you so I'm assuming that is what they hold to.

Your Sister in Christ

Blossom

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Hi Ptwild

The Uniqueness of the Australian Church

The Anglican Church of Australia differs from other churches in the Anglican Communion in ways that can be easily overlooked.

The Church of England in England is part of the State machinery and performs some governmental functions as part of that machinery. Clergy discipline is performed by ecclesiastical courts that are part of the State system. Its bishops are formally appointed by the cathedral chapters, but the government has considerable input into the appointments. Diocesan synods are of little significance and decisions are taken at national or provincial level. Consequently, although the English church has officers with identical names to their Australian counterparts, considerable differences often exist and so they often cannot be equated.

The Episcopal Church of the USA (ECUSA) is different again. The ECUSA has 97 dioceses plus a further 16 Anglican groups who have parted from it for some reason or other over the past century and a half. The ECUSA is governed by a General Convention, which is organised in two houses and sits for two weeks. The size of the church means that lay membership tends not to make a large contribute to decision making because of insufficient continuity.

The bit I've bolded is stating that your Episcopal Church is different. Is this just on a governing basis but the beliefs are meant to be the same???

When I went to my friend's church's website it directed me to the page I gave you so I'm assuming that is what they hold to.

Your Sister in Christ

Blossom


Yes. The actual structure of the governing agent of each church may be different. But if you are in communion with Canterbury, your beliefs are to be the same. The General Convention addresses things of national concern. Back in the 1970's, Convention voted to allow women to serve as priest. This did not, however, mean that a local church has to allow women to serve as priest and/or deacons. The congregation of each local church makes its own decisions regarding what happens at that church. At the last General Convention (which meets only once every ten years), the Episcopal church voted to prohibit the future ordination of gay clergy. This was of course a response the the Bishop of N.H. And lay people are involved. They elect their reps at convention, just like we elect our congressmen in the U.S. legislature to represent our interest. The Book of Common Prayer states the basis of belief of all Anglicans who are in communion with Canterbury. Although the language of the BCP may vary from country to country, the 39 articles remain the same.

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