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orvals

What doctrines do other churches practice

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II was asked these questions twice yesterday and thought I would get some help on answering them more fully.

Which churches have Armenian doctrine (lose your salvation)?
Which churches believe you must be baptized to be saved?
Which churches have Calvinistic doctrine?

Here is what I think ...

Church of Christ ... believes you can lose your salvation and they believe that baptism is part of salvation
Catholics believe that baptism is salvation (not sure)
Nazarene believe you can lose your salvation
Episcopal believe that baptism is salvation (not sure)
Presbyterian is Calvinist
Landmark Baptist is Calvinist
MIssionary Baptist is Calvinist (5 point)
Lutheran baptism is an integral part not sure if it is tied to salvation
Methodist (Not sure)
Seventh day Baptist (not sure)
SBC each church must be looked at separately some are Calvinistic and some are fundamental in their beliefs yet neo-evangelical in their practice.


Can you help in completing this list? Please identify clearly if what you post is what you think or what you know for a fact.

Thank you
orvals

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II was asked these questions twice yesterday and thought I would get some help on answering them more fully.

Which churches have Armenian doctrine (lose your salvation)?
Which churches believe you must be baptized to be saved?
Which churches have Calvinistic doctrine?

Here is what I think ...

Church of Christ ... believes you can lose your salvation and they believe that baptism is part of salvation

Catholics believe that baptism is salvation (not sure)

Nazarene believe you can lose your salvation
Episcopal believe that baptism is salvation (not sure)
Presbyterian is Calvinist
Landmark Baptist is Calvinist
Free will Baptist is Calvinist (5 point)

Lutheran baptism is an integral part not sure if it is tied to salvation
Methodist (Not sure)
Seventh day Baptist (not sure)
SBC each church must be looked at separately some are Calvinistic and some are fundamental in their beliefs yet neo-evangelical in their practice.


Can you help in completing this list? Please identify clearly if what you post is what you think or what you know for a fact.

Thank you
orvals


Interesting questions but, answers should be on line at church websites.

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You are correct Dave. I could visit lots of sites and do lots of reading but still not have clear definitions of the doctrines of salvation expressed by other churches. That is why I am asking for info from those who would know from personal experience or have studied a particular group or come out from a particular church affiliation.

This no only enlightens me but allows other to have this information as well.

Orvals

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Episcopal is Anglican and one of the basic tenants of Anglicanism is that salvation comes by grace through faith. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

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Free will Baptists believe you can lose your salvation.

Seventh Day Baptists believe basically the same as IFB's, only they believe in Saturday worship.


Happy Christian,

As Calvinists how is it that Free Will Baptist do not believe the perseverance of the saints? Is this just the congregation you are familiar with or am I missing something?

Orvals

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You are correct Dave. I could visit lots of sites and do lots of reading but still not have clear definitions of the doctrines of salvation expressed by other churches. That is why I am asking for info from those who would know from personal experience or have studied a particular group or come out from a particular church affiliation.

This no only enlightens me but allows other to have this information as well.

Orvals


Sorry, I was too hasty, I meant...

Interesting question, we could find some answers on their church websites in their statement of faith and doctrines.

Better?

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Happy Christian,

As Calvinists how is it that Free Will Baptist do not believe the perseverance of the saints? Is this just the congregation you are familiar with or am I missing something?

Orvals



I have known some Free Will Baptists - and none of them were Calvanists. I know Wiki isn't all that reliable, but here is the first paragraph about FWB's:
Free Will Baptist is a denomination of churches that share a common history, name, and an acceptance of the Arminian theology of free grace, free salvation, and free will, based on the idea of general atonement. Free Will Baptists share similar soteriological views with General Baptists, Separate Baptists and some United Baptists. The autonomous power of the local church is highly valued. The denomination remains relatively rural and is especially strong in the southern United States.


From a Free Will Baptist:
wow, that's really not what Free Will Baptists believe at all, I would know, being one myself. That's a biased and warped interpretation of Free Will Baptist doctrine. We do not promote salvation by works. A direct quote from the link provided: "It is a salvation by grace alone and not of works."
We are called Free Will Baptists because we believe in "free will, free grace, and free salvation." Because man has the free will to choose to respond to God's call and repent and be saved, we also believe man can choose to turn away from God. Was not Judas one of Christ's followers, who chose to turn away? and for a post-resurrection example, try I Timothy 1:19-20, where Paul mentions those that made "ship-wreck" of their faith. Free Will Baptists separated from Baptists because we would not subscribe to the doctrine of "eternal security" that salvation, once received, could never be forfeited, no matter what the person did. While we do not believe that committing a sin forfeits your salvation, we believe it is possible for a person to turn their back on their faith, by returning to a sinful lifestyle. It is a choice they make, not God "withdrawing their salvation." And I don't think that (or hope that it's not) this is often the case. We believe it is an important point however, because believers should not think their actions are irrelevant to their faith. As James wrote "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17
(I don't know what he was replying to...the first sentence is not in response to anything on this site)
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/f_4011253.htm

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I have known some Free Will Baptists - and none of them were Calvanists. I know Wiki isn't all that reliable, but here is the first paragraph about FWB's:

From a Free Will Baptist: (I don't know what he was replying to...the first sentence is not in response to anything on this site)
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/f_4011253.htm


I am so sorry. I went back and looked at my notes again and found I had confused Missionary Baptist with Free will Baptist forgive me please. I will edit my original post to reflect this change.

Orvals

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I am so sorry. I went back and looked at my notes again and found I had confused Missionary Baptist with Free will Baptist forgive me please. I will edit my original post to reflect this change.

Orvals

That's fine - no apologies necessary!!! I didn't know that Missionary Baptist was Calvanist. Thanks for the info you've posted.

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Episcopal is Anglican and one of the basic tenants of Anglicanism is that salvation comes by grace through faith. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation.


ptwild,

I am not seeking conflict but must respectfully disagree with your statement. The following statements are taken from the Anglican Catchesim.

Q. What is Holy Baptism?
A. Holy Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us as his children and makes us members of Christ's Body, the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom of God.

Q. What is the inward and spiritual grace in Baptism?
A. The inward and spiritual grace in Baptism is union with Christ in his death and resurrection, birth into God's family the Church, forgiveness of sins, and new life in the Holy Spirit.

These last four are taken in unison...

Q. What is the significance of Jesus' resurrection?
A. By his resurrection, Jesus overcame death and opened for us the way of eternal life.

Q. What do we mean when we say that he descended to the dead?
A. We mean that he went to the departed and offered them also the benefits of redemption.

Q. What do we mean when we say that he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father?
A. We mean that Jesus took our human nature into heaven where he now reigns with the Father and intercedes for us.

Q. How can we share in his victory over sin, suffering, and death?
A. We share in his victory when we are baptized into the New Covenant and become living members of Christ.

The catechism is found at this link

http://anglicansonline.org/basics/catec ... 20Covenant

Orvals

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The Anglican church has at times been Roman Catholic, Protestant and Calvinist. The liturgy and traditions, use of the AV and Book of Common Prayer, may be common to many Anglican churches, but the doctrine can be anything, depending on how a given church has evolved and what part of the country it is in.

In fact, over here in the UK, I've not found two Baptist churches that are alike. I've been to at least two that are traditional, Baptist and reformed and others that are very 'liberal'.

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Free Presbyterian (not to be confused with mainline Presbyterian) is a fundemental church which preaches the Gospel. They have a couple of different ideals, such as believing women should wear hats as the head covering, etc...

I used to attend a Free Pres church. The preaching is very good there. I now attend an Independent Baptist church.

Some people would say they are Calvinist, but the Free Pres. Church I attended preached "whosoever will" not election...(although we have to accept that the Bible speaks about election AND the "whosoever wills")

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Free Presbyterian (not to be confused with mainline Presbyterian) is a fundemental church which preaches the Gospel. They have a couple of different ideals, such as believing women should wear hats as the head covering, etc...

I used to attend a Free Pres church. The preaching is very good there. I now attend an Independent Baptist church.

Some people would say they are Calvinist, but the Free Pres. Church I attended preached "whosoever will" not election...(although we have to accept that the Bible speaks about election AND the "whosoever wills")


That is basically my experience with Free P's, too, except that they also baptize babies and believe in a mid-trib rapture. Was that true of your church?

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Catholic's believe that baptism plays a "part" in your salvation. But you are not saved "through" baptism.
The official teaching on salvation is:
Salvation through God's "grace".

Once you have God's grace (repent, asking him to be your personal lord and savor, etc.)
Then you are called to respond. It is a two-fold response. We respond through having Faith in Jesus, and doing good works (as apposed to bad works which are done for your own personal gain. Good works are done out of love for God). Faith AND works.

In addition, Catholics believe you can lose your salvation. But God is slow to anger, and rich in mercy. So we must repent again, and again, every time we fall from grace. And start the process over again.

I am summarizing Catholic teaching, but I'm been Catholic for 30 years and if you want to read the teaching yourself, you can read the on line "Catechism of the Catholic Church". It is "The" book of Catholic teaching.

Hope that helps you. Best of Luck!
Julie

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ptwild,

I am not seeking conflict but must respectfully disagree with your statement. The following statements are taken from the Anglican Catchesim.

Q. What is Holy Baptism?
A. Holy Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us as his children and makes us members of Christ's Body, the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom of God.

Q. What is the inward and spiritual grace in Baptism?
A. The inward and spiritual grace in Baptism is union with Christ in his death and resurrection, birth into God's family the Church, forgiveness of sins, and new life in the Holy Spirit.

These last four are taken in unison...

Q. What is the significance of Jesus' resurrection?
A. By his resurrection, Jesus overcame death and opened for us the way of eternal life.

Q. What do we mean when we say that he descended to the dead?
A. We mean that he went to the departed and offered them also the benefits of redemption.

Q. What do we mean when we say that he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father?
A. We mean that Jesus took our human nature into heaven where he now reigns with the Father and intercedes for us.

Q. How can we share in his victory over sin, suffering, and death?
A. We share in his victory when we are baptized into the New Covenant and become living members of Christ.

The catechism is found at this link

http://anglicansonline.org/basics/catec ... 20Covenant

Orvals


Orvals, no need to worry about starting conflict. You found a catechism that even confuses me (an Anglican) so I can only imagine how it looks to you.

The first thing you have to know about baptism (or any of the sacraments for that matter) is that it is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. The actual physical act/ritual of baptism has no effect whatsoever other than an outward expression of what has already happened. We believe that infants are adopted into the kingdom of God through baptism into His Church. However, when that child grows to an age of understanding, it is his/her responsibility to accept their adoption. After this inward and spiritual grace has been accepted through faith (or as you would say it, "once they get saved"), the person expresses their salvation through the sacrament of Confirmation. If baptism took care of the whole thing, there would be no need for confirmation. Baptism confers the rights and privileges of the Church on the person being baptized. Just like you don't exclude children from the rights and privileges of your family, we don't exclude them from the rights and privileges of the Church (although they cannot take communion until after their faith has been confirmed). Another reason we baptize infants is we believe that baptism took the place of circumcision, and circumcision was performed on the eighth day after birth. We could argue over infant baptism v. believer's baptism all day. I believe there is biblical support for both views and thus, reasonable people will disagree. But make no mistake about it, I don't believe you will find a single Anglican (at least not from the branch which I am familiar with) that believes you are guaranteed salvation by your baptism. It's by grace through faith.

From the same catechism you quoted:

Q: What is required of those to be confirmed:
A: It is required of those to be confirmed that they have been baptized, are sufficiently instructed in the Christian Faith, are penitent for their sins, and are ready to affirm their confession of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

If you are interested in Episcopalian Doctrine, I suggest you look at the Thirty-Nine Articles of Faith.
Here's a link: http://anglicansonline.org/basics/thirt ... icles.html

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That is basically my experience with Free P's, too, except that they also baptize babies and believe in a mid-trib rapture. Was that true of your church?


Dr. Ian Paisley, I've heard speak from an American pulpit twice, is a Free Presbyterian in Northern Ireland. He preached the same salvation we do at Tabernacle Baptist Church in Va.Bch Va,. Tabernacle is a IFPMBC. Nice to know we aren't the only funny-mental people in the world :Green (Dr. Paisley's humor).

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Dr. Ian Paisley, I've heard speak from an American pulpit twice, is a Free Presbyterian in Northern Ireland. He preached the same salvation we do at Tabernacle Baptist Church in Va.Bch Va,. Tabernacle is a IFPMBC. Nice to know we aren't the only funny-mental people in the world :Green (Dr. Paisley's humor).


Yes, he is a strong preacher! He is one who does believe in infant baptism (told friends of ours who are missionaries over there that baptism is over-rated!!!) and mid-trib. He was good friends with the pastoral staff at one of the colleges I went to many years ago. We have a couple of his books. He isn't too well liked in some corners over there, but everyone knows what to expect from him! :thumb

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Yes, he is a strong preacher! He is one who does believe in infant baptism (told friends of ours who are missionaries over there that baptism is over-rated!!!) and mid-trib. He was good friends with the pastoral staff at one of the colleges I went to many years ago. We have a couple of his books. He isn't too well liked in some corners over there, but everyone knows what to expect from him! :thumb


The part bolded and particularly underlined above, I never heard that from Ian Paisley? Could you copy/paste the info from your source?

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II was asked these questions twice yesterday and thought I would get some help on answering them more fully.





Thank you
orvals


Methodists believe you can lose your salvation if they even believe in it to begin with.

The Nazarene is an off shoot of Methodists.

Landmarkers are Baptist Briders but I don't believe they are Calvinists although some within the ABA do hold the view.

Outside of your most of your Baptists , Presbyterians , some non-denominational and Grace Reformed Churches most pastors teach that you can lose your salvation.

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I grew up Arminian/Wesleyan/Nazarene.

You asked which churches teach Arminian doctrine. Here are summaries of both Arminianism and Calvinism. See which one most IFB's agree with more. (You asked which churches teach doctrines of Arminianism.)


Arminianism

Jacob Arminius (1560-1609) and his followers rejected the prevalent Reformation conviction that God had ultimate sovereignty over who would submit to Him in faith and repentance. In 1610, they formulated five ?articles of remonstrance? to articulate their positions. In sum, they argued that election is conditioned upon an individual?s faith in Christ, that Christ died ?for all men and every man,? that man cannot save himself without the grace of God but that he can resist God?s grace, and that the preservation of believers is dependent upon his remaining in Christ.[1] The Arminian argues that the ability to place one?s faith in Christ is given by God to every individual through prevenient grace. In other words, Arminians affirm that people are conceived totally corrupt, but they argue that God gives special grace to every individual, enabling every individual to respond freely to the call of the gospel.[2]

Historically, John and Charles Wesley and their followers, the Methodists, were among the most prominent promoters of Arminian theology. Even today you will find that Wesleyans and Methodists are theological Arminians. Today you will also find some Baptists, Lutherans, and others who hold to soteriological positions reflecting the teachings of Arminius.

Although pure Arminianism logically teaches that just as man can freely choose Christ, he can also freely choose to reject Christ later in life, thus losing his salvation, many who emphasize the other points of Arminianism today nonetheless defend eternal security. Still, such people who emphasize the unaided freedom of man in salvation, even though they defend eternal security, can be rightly described as Arminian in their view of salvation.

More extreme forms of this thought include Pelagianism and Open-Theism, both of which are extreme conclusions of Arminian thought, but are nonetheless outside the boundaries of biblical orthodoxy. Pelagianism teaches that people are conceived, not totally corrupt, but only partially corrupt, and that every individual has innate ability to choose God apart from any work of grace. In other words, according to Pelagianism, individuals are sinners because they sin, while orthodox Christians (both Arminians and Calvinists) believe that individuals sin because they are born sinners. Open-Theism takes logical steps from Arminian thought and argues that the only way to preserve true freedom for mankind is to insist that God does not know the future with certainty. This belief, too, runs outside the boundaries of biblical orthodoxy. Orthodox Christians (both Arminians and Calvinists) have always affirmed the exhaustive foreknowledge of God.

Calvinism

In response to the five-point claims of Arminians, followers of the Reformer John Calvin (1509-1564) formulated five points of their own. At the Council of Dort (1618) they articulated what are known today as the ?Five Points of Calvinism.? Instead of emphasizing the unaided free will of man in salvation, Calvinists claim that the will of man is in complete bondage to sin, and only an effectual work of God?s grace will free a man from that depravity and enable him to respond freely in faith and repentance. Once such a work of grace is performed upon the human heart, that individual will inevitably and immediately turn to Christ, and God chooses to do this miraculous work in the heart of individuals whom He elects based on the good pleasure of His will alone. This act naturally leads, then, to the conclusion that those whom God chooses, once they have come to faith in Christ, will persevere to the end.[3] Historically Presbyterians, Particular Baptists, and others hold to Calvinistic positions regarding salvation.

Pure Calvinists hold to all five of the so-called ?Five Points of Calvinism,? but some Calvinists choose to reject the third point, ?Particular Redemption? (sometimes called ?Limited Atonement?). These Calvinists are more correctly called Amyraldians, but such a ?Four-Point Calvinist? still falls within the greater category of Calvinistic understanding of salvation.

An extreme form of Calvinism, commonly known as Hyper-Calvinism, teaches that since God is entirely sovereign over the salvation of men, Christians have no responsibility to pray or evangelize. Further, some Hyper-Calvinists insist that one can never really be sure he is one of the elect until he dies. These views characterize a very small minority of Calvinists.[4] Traditionally, Calvinists have always been fervent evangelists and prayers. Some of the greatest evangelists of the past have been Calvinists, including Charles Spurgeon, William Carey, George Whitefield, and Jonathan Edwards.


Churches which lean more toward Arminianism (IMO) are all of the "Wesleyan" churches, including Methodist and Nazarene, all of (ironically) Lutheran churches (Luther himself was a Calvinist), and Baptists (and others, I'm sure...maybe Brethren churches and any other churches that follow the Wesleyan tradition--IOW, most evangelical and fundamentalist churches). While not all of these churches believe that one can lose his salvation, they are Arminian in that they teach what Arminius taught.

Calvinistic churches are Presbyterian, Reformed Baptist...any others? I can't think right now, for some reason.

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Missionary Baptists are not necessarily Calvinists, though there are some that call themselves such that are Calvinist. To prove my point, I will take a website of a Missionary Baptist church and quote them. This is not one I know or belong to by the way, just did a google and clicked the first one:

http://pluto.matrix49.com/15361/?subpag ... aith.shtml

VIII-THE GRACE OF REGENERATION

We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be regenerated or born again (John 3:3, 6-7; I Cor. 2:14; II Cor. 5:17; Tit. 3:5); that regeneration consists in giving a holy disposition to the mind (Deut. 30:6; Jer. 24:7; Ezek. 36:26; Gal 5:6; I John 4:7); that it is effected in a manner above our comprehension by the power of the Holy Spirit, in connection with divine truth (Ps. 119:50; Prov. 1:23; John 17:20; I Cor. 4:15; James 1:16; I Peter 1:23-25), so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel (Ps. 110:3; John6:44-45, 65; II Cor. 10:5; Eph 1:17-20; I Peter 1:22-25); and that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance (Acts 5:31; II Tim. 2:24-25), faith (John 6:29; Acts 18:27; Phil. 1:29; Col. 2:12; I Peter 1:21) and newness of life (Rom 6:4; I Cor. 6:9-11; I Peter 4:1-4).

(Highlights are mine)

Some people I know involved with the ABA have told me that it is approximately 70% of those who are part of the ABA that are calvinist. So certainly not sweeping rule.

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The part bolded and particularly underlined above, I never heard that from Ian Paisley? Could you copy/paste the info from your source?


Sorry, 1Tim, I just saw this. Well, the "source" I mentioned were, as I said, friends of ours - and they told us what he said to them. However, I do know that Free Presbyterian doctrine on baptism includes infant baptism. They teach believer's baptism and infant baptism.
Free Presbyterian church of Ulste, founded in 1951, ostensibly in protest against ecumenism and alleged apostasy in Irish Presbyterianism. Ian Paisley, pastor of the Ravenhill Evangelical Mission church in Belfast, a breakaway from Ravenhill Presbyterian congregation, was invited to conduct an evangelistic mission in the vacant Presbyterian congregation, was invited to conduct an evangelistic mission in the vacant Presbyterian congregation of Lissara in Crossgar. The Down Presbytery refused to countenance Paisley as missioner and, in protest, five Lissara elders published a Free Presbyterian Manifesto and formed a new congregation, ?free? from Irish Presbyterian oversight. The Ravenhill Evangelical Mission church became a second Free Presbyterian congregation and there are now more than 50 congregations with a membership in Northern Ireland of 12,362 (1991 census). The Free Presbyterians also claim to have churches in England, Germany, Spain, Australia, the United States, and the Republic of Ireland. They are unashamedly fundamentalist in doctrine and practise both believers' and infant baptism. Ian Paisley, whose own denominational background is Baptist, remains permanent moderator. His Ravenhill Evangelical Mission church has been replaced by the commodious Martyrs' memorial church in honour of the Protestant martyrs, illustrating the anti?Catholicism of the Free Presbyterians. Since 1979 the Whitefield College of the Bible, situated near Gilford in Co. Down, has trained Free Presbyterian ministers. The church remains closely linked to the Democratic Unionist Party.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O245-F ... hflst.html

The Baptismal Font is used during baptisms, which is the rite of entry into church membership. Children are regarded as sharing the promise of salvation with adults in the church and have as much right to be baptised as adults. ('Infant Baptism' does not guarantee admission to Full Membership. Full Membership is only accepted on Profession of a personal Faith.)
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Presbyterian_Church_in_Ireland

Clarence Sexton had Ian Paisley and other Presbyterians in to preach at his church and school over the last year. I listened via the internet as he introduced Paisley and made light of the fact that he is a Presbyterian and we are Baptists. There was no warning of the fact that the Free Presbyterian church views baptism as a ?controverted issue? that is a matter of ?personal liberty.? There was no refutation of their Calvinism. As a matter of fact, the Reformers' portraits line the halls of Temple Baptist Church.
To understand the background of this quote, here's the article...interesting read! http://www.wayoflife.org/files/8b8339fc ... 4-274.html (BTW - this quote is not from David Cloud...he is quoting from someone else.

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