1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

[JerryNumbers]

I dont think 1Thess.4:13-18 is talking about Jesus coming to rule and reign as King,this passage is not

talking about the thousand year reign.Jesus comes in the clouds to catch away the believers,and he

brings with him the departed souls who are in Christ. The appearing at the end of the tribulation,Jesus comes to earth,at the

catching away,he comes in the clouds,they are not the same event.Several other verses teach that this event happens before the tribulation.That is the plain teaching and literal interpitation.

Right, 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is when Jesus comes for His own, he never touched this earth, that comes later. But it seems we differ, this take place before the tribulations.

[JerryNumbers]

Other Jerry, now I can see why you are bucking and kicking against my posts. I did not say they were not resurrected - but that they were not resurrected IMMORTAL - they were still able to die, just like Lazarus, the widow's son, and all the other people resurrected in the OT and the NT before the rapture. Jesus was the first person to be resurrected with a glorified body - resurrected IMMORTAL, which is why He is called the firstfruits from the dead. 1 Corinthians 15 states that about Christ, then states the next to be resurrected in this fashion are those at His return (ie. at the rapture).

This is what that passage in Matthew states - notice the time progression:

Matthew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

First Jesus died.

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom;

Then the temple veil was torn,

and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened;

Then an earthquake and graves were opened.

and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Then these saints were resurrected MORTAL (not immortal).

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Then these resurrected saints came out of their graves after Jesus' own resurrection. It does not state they were resurrected AFTER Jesus, but that they came out of the graves (ie. tombs) AFTER Jesus arose. That is the point I am arguing - if they resurrected before Jesus did, then they were not raised IMMORTAL, but MORTAL (able to die again - and in fact, they would have unless Jesus also took them with Him when He ascended to Heaven - but we have no Scripture that speaks specifically about that, just those that were in prison*/Abraham's Bosom being taken to Heaven at that point in time).

*There are one or more OT passages that speak about the place for the waiting dead as a prison.

Isaiah 24:21-22 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So can you prove that the people died again? Or is that just your opinion?

I just don't believe you will find proof any where in the Bible that they died again.

[Madeline]

Hi

So can you prove that the people died again? Or is that just your opinion?

I just don't believe you will find proof any where in the Bible that they died again.

I agree with Jerry (without numbers), that these believers of Matthew 27:50-53 were resuscitated, not resurrected (to put it in theological terms). The Greek NT does not distinguish between the two things via its vocabulary, but there is clearly a dramatic difference. We can see, for example, from the case of Lazarus, that when he came back to life it was not the unique, resurrection life/body that he enjoyed, but rather the same earthly life that we all are presently experiencing. The believers temporarily brought back to life as a testimony to the life-giving death of Christ on our behalf likewise expired at some point in the natural way and await the coming of the resurrection as do we all. As 1Cor.15:23-24 makes clear, Jesus is the only One yet to be "resurrected" in the true sense of that word (i.e., possessing an eternal body which will never die et al.), with the next echelon of the resurrection to be the rapture of believers alive at His second advent return at the end of the Tribulation. Hope this helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

Right, 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is when Jesus comes for His own, he never touched this earth, that comes later. But it seems we differ, this take place before the tribulations.

The rapture comes before the tribulation,the second coming where Jesus comes to rule and reign happens at the end of the tribulation.My position is a pre-trib rapture and a pre-millenial Kingdom(Jesus comes physically at the end of the tribulation and before the thousand year kingdom age begins).

[JerryNumbers]

Hi



I agree with Jerry (without numbers), that these believers of Matthew 27:50-53 were resuscitated, not resurrected (to put it in theological terms). The Greek NT does not distinguish between the two things via its vocabulary, but there is clearly a dramatic difference. We can see, for example, from the case of Lazarus, that when he came back to life it was not the unique, resurrection life/body that he enjoyed, but rather the same earthly life that we all are presently experiencing. The believers temporarily brought back to life as a testimony to the life-giving death of Christ on our behalf likewise expired at some point in the natural way and await the coming of the resurrection as do we all. As 1Cor.15:23-24 makes clear, Jesus is the only One yet to be "resurrected" in the true sense of that word (i.e., possessing an eternal body which will never die et al.), with the next echelon of the resurrection to be the rapture of believers alive at His second advent return at the end of the Tribulation. Hope this helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Cor 15:22-24 (KJV)

These verse does not prove you point.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits. Jesus was resurrected before them, they came out of the grave after Jesus did, your right on that point, Jesus was the firstfurit, them they came out of their graves.

I agree Lazarus came back to regular life, that seems to be implied in the Scriptures.

But you have no proof that those who came from the grave after Jesus have to die the 2nd time.

[JerryNumbers]

The rapture comes before the tribulation,the second coming where Jesus comes to rule and reign happens at the end of the tribulation.My position is a pre-trib rapture and a pre-millenial Kingdom(Jesus comes physically at the end of the tribulation and before the thousand year kingdom age begins).

:thumb OK. We're together on that, I misunderstood what you stated. Sorry.

[Jerry]

[but every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits. Jesus was resurrected before them, they came out of the grave after Jesus did, your right on that point, Jesus was the firstfurit, them they came out of their graves.

But you have no proof that those who came from the grave after Jesus have to die the 2nd time.

Matthew states that they arose - THEN they came out of the graves after Jesus arose - it does not state they AROSE AFTER JESUS AROSE, which is what you are making the passage state. Therefore if they were resurrected before Jesus was, they were not raised immortal - as 1 Corinthians 15 clearly states Jesus was the first person to be so raised.

[JerryNumbers]

No I did not, I never stated that, go back and read my post once again. I said they come out of their graves after Jesus did, just as the Scriptures state.

Why are you changing what I said??????

53 And came out of the graves after his {Jesus"} resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Matt 27:53 (KJV)

But you have no proof that these people had to die a 2nd death on this earth, in fact the Bible teaches us we die once.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:27 (KJV)

[Madeline]

No I did not' date=' I never stated that, go back and read my post once again. I said they come out of their graves[b'] after Jesus did, just as the Scriptures state.

Why are you changing what I said??????

53 And came out of the graves after his {Jesus"} resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Matt 27:53 (KJV)

But you have no proof that these people had to die a 2nd death on this earth, in fact the Bible teaches us we die once.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:27 (KJV)

This verse is certainly true for the vast majority of mankind. These very few people constitute an exception - although it's not much of an exception since, following resuscitation, they again fell into the same category of us all in regard to Hebrews 9:27, eventually facing a physical death from which there would be no more reprieve.

Certainly, the widow's son whom Elijah brought back, the Shummanite's son whom Elisha brought back, Tabitha, whom Peter brought back, and the boy who fell from the window in Ephesus whom Paul brought back are surely not around any more. By all indications they went on to live normal lives after being brought back and then died as it is appointed. Whereas those who are resurrected can never die again (and there was nothing in any of these or similar cases to indicate that the body of these so resuscitated was changed in any way other than the miracle of resuscitation). There is also the even rarer case of transmutation. Enoch (and so far Elijah) did not meet with physical death in the normal way, yet they will be resurrected and appear before the judgment seat of Christ the same as we all will. Finally, Paul's statement in Hebrews 9:27 was made after all of the events discussed above, and from that point forward was true even without exception. Your post is an example of how one WRONGLY divides the word of truth.

Love,
Madeline

[JerryNumbers]

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Matt 27:52-53 (KJV)


Did you notice it said many bodies, now I would not even say how many this many means, but I feel it would mean a substantial number.

Those you point out are one here and there, and they are under completely different circumstances. So be careful about you opinion.

On that day Jesus proved He not only beat death, but that he could raise dead people from the graves that had been there, some a few days perhaps, some many years, which adds validity that He has gone to build those mansions He promised, as well a come back for us who are alive at His coming, raise the bodies of all those who are still in the grave who are His brothers and sisters at His coming to meet their souls in the air where they can have the glorified body that He promised, them we who are alive will be caught up and forever be with the Lord.

Those Scriptures you bring up just do not rightly cross reference with Matt 27:52-53. No context at all.

[Madeline]

I'm not sure what your argument is. I wouldn't disagree. In fact, your sentiments seem to accept that those brought forth after the crucifixion were "resuscitated" as I term it, rather than "resurrected", something that will not happen until we all are given eternal bodies at our Lord's return. If you mean that the raising of the dead at that time brought more evidence to what Christ taught during His time on earth..it is logically reasonable. That appears to be the primary reason some were raised...(to provide added evidence for the truth that Jesus is the Christ).

Love,
Madeline

[JerryNumbers]

I set here trying to write down what I'm getting at, but I'm past being able to do that, my eyes are trying to close on me and my brain is trying to shut down at this hour.

Hopefully I will try to get back to this tomorrow. Don't know when, I've got to attend a funeral service for a 51 year old cousin you had a heart attack in his recliner where his son found him about 12:30 AM Saturday morning.