1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

[JerryNumbers]

Matthew 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Why couldn't this be those Jesus led to heaven?

[Jerry]

Maybe these were some of them - however, He didn't lead anyone to Heaven, and these people were not raised immortal BEFORE Christ's resurrection. It is conceivable that they were around for 40+ days and then Christ took them up, but that would be a conclusion based on supposition and not direct Scripture.

But this verse doesn't allow for another resurrection (ie. in the manner of CHrist, raised immortal) after Christ and before the rapture:

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[JerryNumbers]

Matthew 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his {Jesus} resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

We know for fact it was after Jesus' resurrection.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Seems they could be the very ones.

[Jerry]

Actually the passage you quoted states they were raised from the dead WHEN Jesus died, but that they came out of their graves (ie. tombs) AFTER Jesus resurrected - it does not say they were raised after Jesus arose.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

There is no mention here of believers who are already resurrected in Heaven.

1 Peter 3:19 is referring to Jesus going to Abraham's Bosom while He was dead.

[JerryNumbers]

Actually the passage you quoted states they were raised from the dead WHEN Jesus died' date='[/b'] but that they came out of their graves (ie. tombs) AFTER Jesus resurrected - it does not say they were raised after Jesus arose.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

There is no mention here of believers who are already resurrected in Heaven.

1 Peter 3:19 is referring to Jesus going to Abraham's Bosom while He was dead.

Matthew 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his {Jesus} resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Jerry, its states very clearly that, graves were opened, many bodies of the saints which slept arose and came out of the graves, AFTER Jesus' resurrection.

Your trying to twist things around just a bit.

Now if those people were not resurrected from the grave, them there is no such thing, because that is exactly what happened that day.

[Madeline]

I agree that every word in the Bible is inspired and must be taken as it reads, unless it seems to contradict other scriptures. In that case a renewed effort must be extended to understand each passage. In this case however, the only contradiction is between what the Bible says and what the prevailing belief is concerning dispensational truth. When we read "even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." that is exactly what it means. In other words, when Christ descends to the clouds those who are asleep in Him will be raised.(The thought that they will be raised mortal has absolutely no scriptural basis and doesn't even make sense. But what about the phrase, "will God bring with Him"? That is to say, Christ is coming to earth to reign and rule over the nations for His millennial reign. Are those who were raised coming to earth with Him? That's what is says, doesn't it? I suggest we accept what it says and look further at our own beliefs. The fact is the Thess. was written during the Acts period when the hope of believers was still the earthly reign of Christ. It wasn't until after the Acts period in Eph. that we read of a heavenly hope.

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

No, it says Jesus died, the vail tore, the rocks rents, the dead came alive, THEN:

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It is an order of events - they left the tombs after He arose - it does not say they arose after He arose, but that they arose after He died. Can't get much plainer than this: they "came out of the graves AFTER his resurrection."

[JerryNumbers]

"..came out of the graves after his resurrection.."

What does that say?

[Jerry]

It says they came out of the graves after His resurrection - it does not say they were resurrected after His resurrection.

[JerryNumbers]

You amaze me, the graves opened up, and they came out of their graves and appeared to man, but they were not resurrected.

Hey, if they came out of their graves they were resurrected and were no loner laying in their graves.

[Madeline]

Hi!

Jerry80871852, the problem with your analysis is that you assumed there is a time sequence being observed by the Bible writer. That isn't accurate thinking as we will see. Keep in mind that the Greek documents have no punctuation marks. No periods, no capitals, no hyphens, no exclamation mark, no comma, etc. All the words flowed together. In an effort to clarify for the later Bible reader, the translators placed punctuation into the passage and added words that they hoped would make the passage more clear. Most often, spaces of time are between verses. It makes the later reader work harder (to understand the history) but it must be remembered that we would have had volumes upon volumes of passages about their early history, if the author of every early document retraced every event or situation in its moment by moment exactness.

But, in this instance, verse 53 clarifies the time he is writing about in verse 53.

For instance, the time Christ spent in the tomb, His body dead, His soul in Hell and then in paradise (see Luke 23:43) isn't even noted between verse 50 - 53 of Matthew 27 (verse 53 makes note that that He had already been resurrected), it mentioned in verse 50 that He had yielded up His spirit (died), but the three days His body was dead is not referred to here and verse 53 shows that the writer has skipped to the time after His resurrection. Verse 53 shows that no dead human being had been raised from the dead until AFTER Christ's resurrection. "Raised" is coming out of the tomb. The Greek word, "raised" here is "egeiro" - to waken, rouse from death." The word used here for "resurrection" comes from this Greek word, "egeiro" - "a resurgence from death - resurrection" The author notes in verse 53 that this happened AFTER Christ was resurrected.

"... And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. ..."

No later Bible reader can assume the Bible documents were written in sequence (in reality they most often are not).... note that after verse 53, the writer goes back into time, referring to what happened before He rose from the dead (see verses 55-66). Again, it is a careful watchfulness re context we must always keep in mind regarding any statement or account made in the Bible. Hope this helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline

[JerryNumbers]

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Matt 27:53 (KJV)

I assume nothing, the Holy inspired Scriptures tells us very clear that they came out of their graves after Jesus' resurrection.

You used many words to contradict the very plain teachings of the Holy Bible.

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

I dont think 1Thess.4:13-18 is talking about Jesus coming to rule and reign as King,this passage is not

talking about the thousand year reign.Jesus comes in the clouds to catch away the believers,and he

brings with him the departed souls who are in Christ. The appearing at the end of the tribulation,Jesus comes to earth,at the

catching away,he comes in the clouds,they are not the same event.Several other verses teach that this event happens before the tribulation.That is the plain teaching and literal interpitation.

[Jerry]

Other Jerry, now I can see why you are bucking and kicking against my posts. I did not say they were not resurrected - but that they were not resurrected IMMORTAL - they were still able to die, just like Lazarus, the widow's son, and all the other people resurrected in the OT and the NT before the rapture. Jesus was the first person to be resurrected with a glorified body - resurrected IMMORTAL, which is why He is called the firstfruits from the dead. 1 Corinthians 15 states that about Christ, then states the next to be resurrected in this fashion are those at His return (ie. at the rapture).

This is what that passage in Matthew states - notice the time progression:

Matthew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

First Jesus died.

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom;

Then the temple veil was torn,

and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened;

Then an earthquake and graves were opened.

and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Then these saints were resurrected MORTAL (not immortal).

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Then these resurrected saints came out of their graves after Jesus' own resurrection. It does not state they were resurrected AFTER Jesus, but that they came out of the graves (ie. tombs) AFTER Jesus arose. That is the point I am arguing - if they resurrected before Jesus did, then they were not raised IMMORTAL, but MORTAL (able to die again - and in fact, they would have unless Jesus also took them with Him when He ascended to Heaven - but we have no Scripture that speaks specifically about that, just those that were in prison*/Abraham's Bosom being taken to Heaven at that point in time).

*There are one or more OT passages that speak about the place for the waiting dead as a prison.

Isaiah 24:21-22 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

[John the Baptist]

Hi!

Jerry80871852, the problem with your analysis is that you assumed there is a time sequence being observed by the Bible writer. That isn't accurate thinking as we will see. Keep in mind that the Greek documents have no punctuation marks. No periods, no capitals, no hyphens, no exclamation mark, no comma, etc. All the words flowed together. In an effort to clarify for the later Bible reader, the translators placed punctuation into the passage and added words that they hoped would make the passage more clear. Most often, spaces of time are between verses. It makes the later reader work harder (to understand the history) but it must be remembered that we would have had volumes upon volumes of passages about their early history, if the author of every early document retraced every event or situation in its moment by moment exactness.

But, in this instance, verse 53 clarifies the time he is writing about in verse 53.

For instance, the time Christ spent in the tomb, His body dead, His soul in Hell and then in paradise (see Luke 23:43) isn't even noted between verse 50 - 53 of Matthew 27 (verse 53 makes note that that He had already been resurrected), it mentioned in verse 50 that He had yielded up His spirit (died), but the three days His body was dead is not referred to here and verse 53 shows that the writer has skipped to the time after His resurrection. Verse 53 shows that no dead human being had been raised from the dead until AFTER Christ's resurrection. "Raised" is coming out of the tomb. The Greek word, "raised" here is "egeiro" - to waken, rouse from death." The word used here for "resurrection" comes from this Greek word, "egeiro" - "a resurgence from death - resurrection" The author notes in verse 53 that this happened AFTER Christ was resurrected.

"... And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. ..."

No later Bible reader can assume the Bible documents were written in sequence (in reality they most often are not).... note that after verse 53, the writer goes back into time, referring to what happened before He rose from the dead (see verses 55-66). Again, it is a careful watchfulness re context we must always keep in mind regarding any statement or account made in the Bible. Hope this helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline

You are right the Greek text is our authority and clearly I agree with the time sequence.