1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

[JerryNumbers]

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)

In verse 14 it says those who are asleep in Jesus he will bring back with Him. I believe exactly what it says He will bring them with Him.

But I was looking in a couple of commentaries that says, this does not really mean He will literally bring them back with Him.

What is y'alls opinion?

[rancher824]

My opinion, since that is what God says he will do, who an I to question it!!!!!

[John81]

If the Word says He will bring them back with Him, then I believe He will do just that.

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

Agreed,I think means that the saved souls of the believers in heaven will come with Jesus at the rapture ,and
they will recieve their new bodies with the rest of us who are living(hopefully!) at His return.
What a glorious day that will be!

[Charbo]

God says what He means and means what He says. I don't understand why some commentators insist on showing their unbelief/ignorance.

[John the Baptist]

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The context implies that those who are asleep will be raised and thier spirit will be reunited with their glorified body. God will take them to heaven along with those still alive at His coming.

God Bless
John

[JerryNumbers]

I agree, if it say, and that's exactly what it says, that Jesus will bring them with Him, that is exactly what He will do.

From time to time I will check a commentary to see what it has to say, I was surprised that someone would say He really would not bring them with Him.

But while we are at this, whats your thoughts on these verses? We know its a resurrection and that it took place after Jesus resurrected from the grave.

Matthew 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[Jerry]

I believe it is the same as Lazarus' resurrection - temporary, and that they later died again. Jesus is the firstfruits from the dead - the first to rise immortal; therefore these saints were raised mortal.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[Guest Guest]

I believe it is the same as Lazarus' resurrection - temporary, and that they later died again. Jesus is the firstfruits from the dead - the first to rise immortal; therefore these saints were raised mortal.

Possibly, but what about the phrase "appeared" unto many? Personally I think it was similar to Moses and Elijah when they appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.

[Jerry]

It doesn't have to mean made some special kind of appearance - but appeared in the city; ie. went to the city and people saw them (not appeared and left, but made an appearance and people saw them). Jesus did not take those deceased righteous saints to Heaven until His ascension - so either they came and died again within those forty days, or they remained past that point in time (and then either died after, or were "raptured" in some way - but there are no passages that speak of some early rapture of any saints).

[Guest Guest]

What are your thoughts on Moses and Elijah?

[JerryNumbers]

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:5-6 (KJV)

We know that those who have a part in the 1st resurrection are blessed.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

We also know Jesus is the firstfruit, them everyone else in their own order.

Before I take another step let me ask, do you think those who died before Jesus' resurrection went down into the place spoken of in Luke 16, which Lazarus was on one sidein Abraham's bosom, the rich man on the other side separated by a great gulf and my opi9non is the rich man along with ever other lost person who has ever died has gone to that same place. But what about abraham, Lazarus and all the others who were saved before Jesus' death and resurrection, are they still there are have they been move to heaven after the firstfruit being Jesus ascended to heaven.

I believe they are now in heaven, and will be among those who Jesus brings back with Him in 1 Thessalonians 4.

It they are now in heaven, when where they moved to heaven?

[Jerry]

I believe Jesus took those saints out of Abraham's Bosom when He ascended to Heaven:

Ephesians 4:8-10 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Now, every believer goes immediately into the presence of the Lord when they die.

For the record, I believe Elisha and Enoch were also in Abraham's Bosom until that point too - but they went there without dying first. They were not dwelling in the presence of the Lord because the veil (Christ's body) had not been rent yet. Jesus' body was rent on the cross, and opened the way into the Holy of Holies.

Hebrews 10:19-20 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

[Guest Guest]

I believe that too, I was asking about the fact that they seemed to have bodies at Jesus's transfiguration specifically. Do you hold that they had no bodies and were just spirits?

[Jerry]

Yes - Hebrews 12 refers to those currently in heaven as the spirits of just men made perfect (ie. complete) - but they don't have bodies yet. However, I am totally sure that whatever believers are there are certainly interacting with one another and can recognize one another, like Abraham and Lazarus knew one another, yet they were not resurrected yet.