Are Denominations/Affiliations a Good Thing?

[speerjp1]

I have been following this debate very closely. In fact, I had what I thought was a great rebuttal to what you said in several instances but my session timed out and I lost it. :tum

After reading and re-reading this thread it seems that there is no practical difference in what you believe and what we believe, so what is the point? Sure, we've disagreed on some stuff but it has primarily turned out to be semantic disagreements.

Something to watch out for: you seem to simply be taking an arrogant view of your own way of doing things. Saying that you are somehow so objective that your ideas have played less of a role in your studies of God's Word than anyone elses here is pretty arrogant and, I would say, probably wrong. We are all human and make mistakes. To say you had no preconceptions about the church before you studied it in the Bible is pretty haughty. Just something to be careful of in the future.

[kevinmiller]

Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

You can be friends with those goes to a different kind of church. I do all the time, but we not get along with certain issues. My sister is a Lutheran, and we argue all the time about religion. She says one thing, but I say another. You really can't fellowship and have a bible study with someone who disagrees with you all the time. They are pretty much strongheaded.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

You and your sister don't have to fight about what you believe, it is unprofitable. I don't agree with all of my friends on certain issues. Sure, with a few of them I've debated issues, others I haven't. After we finish discussing it, we move on to another topic and the subject may never come up again.

I have been following this debate very closely. In fact, I had what I thought was a great rebuttal to what you said in several instances but my session timed out and I lost it. :tum

After reading and re-reading this thread it seems that there is no practical difference in what you believe and what we believe, so what is the point? Sure, we've disagreed on some stuff but it has primarily turned out to be semantic disagreements.

Something to watch out for: you seem to simply be taking an arrogant view of your own way of doing things. Saying that you are somehow so objective that your ideas have played less of a role in your studies of God's Word than anyone elses here is pretty arrogant and, I would say, probably wrong. We are all human and make mistakes. To say you had no preconceptions about the church before you studied it in the Bible is pretty haughty. Just something to be careful of in the future.

Well, the point of it is that the way you view the church affects how you see your fellow Christians and it affects how you believe the local church ought to be run and managed. It affects other areas as well, but those are just two generalizations.

Sorry if I came across as being arrogant, it wasn't intended. It was mostly my own frustration from people accusing me of believing what I "want" or acting as though the idea just popped into my head on a whim. I do think it is important, though, that we not regard the teachings of man if they run contrary to Scripture.

[Psalms18_28]

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

You and your sister don't have to fight about what you believe, it is unprofitable. I don't agree with all of my friends on certain issues. Sure, with a few of them I've debated issues, others I haven't. After we finish discussing it, we move on to another topic and the subject may never come up again.

Aren't you doing the same thing right now?

My sister believes that if you don't have water baptism, then you are not saved. How can we share the Gospel of Christ together if I say repent, believe in the Lord Christ and you will be saved, while she says... you have to baptized to be saved. This is serious issues here, not over something foolish.

[kevinmiller]

Aren't you doing the same thing right now?

My sister believes that if you don't have water baptism, then you are not saved. How can we share the Gospel of Christ together if I say repent, believe in the Lord Christ and you will be saved, while she says... you have to baptized to be saved. This is serious issues here, not over something foolish.

No, this is an informal discussion. I think it's a problem when you can't get along with someone because they believe differently. I get along with most of the people on this board even though I disagree with most everyone here on at least one issue.

Since your sister believes that, it would be difficult for you to witness together, I agree. It doesn't mean that it must be source of constant contention, though, unless she is constantly bringing it up, in which case it would be difficult for you to do anything about it.

[Psalms18_28]

I agree you can get along with people if they believe differently, but just saying that it is hard to fellowship (and I don't mean being friends with someone) with someone who disagree with you with alot of major issues (not minors). It's hard to learn the bible with someone who believes in a different salvation from someone else. Because they are going to apply every bible verse to fit their core belief. Like with Calvinists, like the word "THE WORLD" , they think it is applying to the elects around the world. Of course, Calvinisms is minor, but JW will change the bible inside out to fit their beliefs.



Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

[speerjp1]

Well' date=' the point of it is that the way you view the church affects how you see your fellow Christians and it affects how you believe the local church ought to be run and managed. It affects other areas as well, but those are just two generalizations.[/quote']

I'm talking about the practical point. What is it? The conclusions drawn so far seem to just be that there are some disagreements on the universal vs. local church; however, there have been no practical differences in how we would act differently.

If someone is mistreating a brother, it is more likely a personal problem than a denominational problem.

If we are going to have denominations regardless of this discussion, why discuss it? Are you going to continue to go to denominational churches even though you don't think they are scriptural? Are you going to continue to go to Sunday School even though you believe it to be unscriptural as well? How much do you really believe these things? Do you believe them enough to make you change, no matter how unpopular it is?

I guess what I'm getting at is this: if there is no practical way to act differently, then why believe diffently on a matter? And, especially, why try to convince others to believe a different way?

[Anon]

I guess what I'm getting at is this: if there is no practical way to act differently, then why believe diffently on a matter? And, especially, why try to convince others to believe a different way?

Seems like universal church beliefs run strong for whatever reason...when we first were called here, a guy in the church said he would not be the vote keeping us out; however, he would leave if we came, simply over this issue. And sure enough, he did leave.

People who are universal church in general do not like to have a committment to one church. They like to send their money where they please, and go to church when/where they please. After all, everyone is the "church" anyway so it doesn't matter in their eyes. Opens up problems.

[Guest Guest]

Kevin, believe it or not I grew up in a IFB church that taught almost exactly what you believe, and they used the exact same verses you did. Up until five years or so ago I would have argued for your position too. Didn't know hardly any Christians that didn't believe in a universal church like you describe. They and I didn't reject the local church but they also believed in a universal one. I eventually heard teaching that there was no universal church and reacted to it just as you are... poorly... Fortunately the man chose not to argue with me much, and I can attest that if he had it wouldn't have done him or me a bit of good. I wasn't ready to listen, I was ready to argue. :ooops He told me the truth, gave an explanation of a couple of verses I mentioned(some of the same ones BTW), left it at that, and we both went on our way feeling we were right. But... the Holy Spirit didn't leave me alone. :Green Every time I came across one of those verses that I had previously considered as referring to the "universal" church a little voice(not literally) started explaining how those verses could be referring to a local church instead of a supposed universal one: the existence of which I had before never even questioned. I fought with it for almost two years, worried that I was right to begin with and that I was just second guessing... Still, eventually I had to give it up, no other choice... the Holy Spirit is persistent...

So while you may not understand my position at all, you may think it illogical, and you may think I won't argue with you right now because I can't: I understand your position quite well and I am not arguing further because I DO understand your position. I know no matter what I say you will not be able handle this particular piece of meat until the Spirit has a chance to work a while. How long that may be I have no idea.

I am not talking down to you, I just understand your position and have "been there, done that" in this case at least.

Grace and peace...

[JerryNumbers]

Kevin, believe it or not I grew up in a IFB church that taught almost exactly what you believe, and they used the exact same verses you did. Up until five years or so ago I would have argued for your position too. Didn't know hardly any Christians that didn't believe in a universal church like you describe. They and I didn't reject the local church but they also believed in a universal one. I eventually heard teaching that there was no universal church and reacted to it just as you are... poorly... Fortunately the man chose not to argue with me much, and I can attest that if he had it wouldn't have done him or me a bit of good. I wasn't ready to listen, I was ready to argue. :ooops He told me the truth, gave an explanation of a couple of verses I mentioned(some of the same ones BTW), left it at that, and we both went on our way feeling we were right. But... the Holy Spirit didn't leave me alone. :Green Every time I came across one of those verses that I had previously considered as referring to the "universal" church a little voice(not literally) started explaining how those verses could be referring to a local church instead of a supposed universal one: the existence of which I had before never even questioned. I fought with it for almost two years, worried that I was right to begin with and that I was just second guessing... Still, eventually I had to give it up, no other choice... the Holy Spirit is persistent...

So while you may not understand my position at all, you may think it illogical, and you may think I won't argue with you right now because I can't: I understand your position quite well and I am not arguing further because I DO understand your position. I know no matter what I say you will not be able handle this particular piece of meat until the Spirit has a chance to work a while. How long that may be I have no idea.

I am not talking down to you, I just understand your position and have "been there, done that" in this case at least.

Grace and peace...

, keeping on keeping on will do no one the least bit of good and is the reason I'm not saying no more, but quietly reading what is being said under this topic while lurking in the background.

[kevinmiller]

Well, I do believe that it does have an effect on how you view the church and, therefore, how the local church is run as well as your behavior to other Christians, to a certain extent. How you view things oftentimes affects how your respond to it. I think that the biggest problem with local church doctrine is that it often results in Christians thinking that those who believe differently are somehow lesser Christians or aren't a part of their "group" and should be shunned. Church doctrine often ties into separation, as well.

Thanks for the post, Seth. I'm not sure how that will work. lol It's interesting that some people seem to feel like the Holy Spirit led them one way and another person another way. I guess discernment is the most important thing and making sure it lines up with Scripture. I'm not sure that I'll change my mind about it anytime in the future, but at least we can agree to disagree. Who knows, maybe you'll come back to the universal church side. hehe