"Misquoting Jesus" destroying the faith of Christians

[Jerry]

You cannot simply take manuscripts, even if they were the same ones used by the KJB translators, translate them into another language, and expect to have a perfect, infallible Bible.

Sure you can - that is exactly what the KJV tranlators did, and God is no respector of persons.

No, God inspired the words, not the writers or translators - therefore whatever language those words are translated into, they are still inspired.

[Guest Guest]

Consistency, authority, coherence throughout. Also the power that it has exhibited through history; the Great Awakenings, the missionary outreach of the 18th through the 20th centuries, and most importantly the colonization of America. I'm going to see about doing a short study on numbers in history that I find fascinating; I'll likely put that on my blog.

[Jerry]

And why was the second clause in 1 John 5:7 inserted without any evidence whatsoever? No mss. or text available to the translators had that part in it' date=' but they included it and it was validated later when more mss. were discovered.[/quote']

Strange that you would attempt to defend the King James Bible by quoting the argument of a higher critic - an argument, by the way, which he later admitted he was wrong on. 1 John 5:7 was in some Greek manuscripts that were available, as well as in quotes by the so-called church fathers, and in translations into other languages.

[Guest Guest]

No, God inspired the words, not the writers or translators - therefore whatever language those words are translated into, they are still inspired.

I'll be getting into this on my blog, hopefully, but let's take a quick peek at it here.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[2 Timothy 3:16]

Now, at first glance, what you say seems to make sense. However, let's dig a little deeper into this verse and see what it's really saying. "Scripture" we understand is the word of God, here being directly referred to as the Hebrew Torah or what we'd call the Old Testament. Of course we now know that the entire canon of the Bible is Scripture and this verse applies. "is given by" is the next phrase, stating that "scripture" is given, related or transferred by the subsequent word, "inspiration," and the modifying phrase "of God." Now, to rephrase, God's inspiration gives scripture. Ok, now to find out what "inspiration" is.

To do so, we'll open the Bible software (Bible Reader Free for me; I can't get MacSword to work now) and run a word search on "inspiration." Lo and behold,

[heartstrings]

I don't doubt that He could. But the issue is did He? You cannot simply take manuscripts, even if they were the same ones used by the KJB translators, translate them into another language, and expect to have a perfect, infallible Bible. The inspiration of the Almighty has to be on those translating the scriptures. Even if it's not a perfect translation as is the KJB, God can and will use it like He uses other versions in English.

Another thing: the TR was the main text used by the translators, as was the Masoretic Hebrew text, but they used well over 300 different manuscripts, among them some corrupt ones! The issue here isn't the Texts or manuscripts or the language, it is the power of God and what He choses to do with His word. Is there a perfect Bible in every language? No. Does He still honor them as His word? Of course, as many people are saved every day worldwide. Kathie and I are going to be missionaries in Chile, South America. I know basic Spanish and she took one year in High School. We are not going to go teach them English so they can read the KJB. When we're there, I will use the 1865 Reina Valera Spanish Bible, because I believe that to be the one God has given me for the people of Chile. Is it perfect? I don't know; the man I will be working with says it is. Does God honor it? Most certainly.

And putting one's faith in the Bible without first having it in Christ is folly. At the same time, however, we must realize that without the Bible, we have no proof of Christ's life, death, burial, resurrection; salvation, eternal security, et. al. One's faith must be in Christ, but he must also believe the Bible.

Friend,
When I heard the word of God preached as the KJB Bible says...
From the King James Bible...
And believed the Gospel and repented as the Bible says
Almighty God came into my heart just like the Bible says
Peace and Joy instantly flooded my soul like the Bible says
Right then and there, God put a love for His word that had NEVER been there before...like the Bible says
I became a Bible believer

God says in His Bible that if you fail to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will go to HELL.
That's a place of unimaginable anguish and horrible misery friend.
Almighty God, who holds the vast Universe in His hand, says that He is faithful....in His Bible
He wouldn't dilly dally around and give you a message that says you are going to HELL without it being absolutely true and perfect. He doesn't do things haphazard like we do.
If you are going to preach to your people that they are going to HELL...you are aren't you? Then you better use God's perfect pure word.
God says in His Bible that His Word is pure.
I don't know how to make it any plainer.

[Guest Guest]

If I'm wrong on my statement, then I apologize; however, I don't see what's "strange" about me using that evidence, its validity aside. What one man uses to discredit the Book can easily be turned around to evidence God's power. Like my dad said: studying Greek will make you either reject the King James Bible or believe It with all your heart. I chose the latter.

[Guest Guest]

I wander what would happen if older text (by this I mean text older than those that the translators used in creating the KJV) were discovered that contridicted some things in the KJV. Or if something were uncovered that showed the translator manipulated the text, or just plainly left somehting out/inserted something by mistake. Like what if you found a translator's diary in which he admits that he made stuff up and put in the final KJV. Could that effect whether or not it is infallible/ divinely inspired? Also, what's the opinion of the Christians existing before the KJV? Was their doctrine false by default? Were they able to receive the true word of God? It just seems that questions like these pop up anytime I try to convince myself that the KJV is the sole perfectly preserved word of God.

I've fooled around with writing a novel based on a large passenger jet crash. A signifigant number of people survive and are stranded on an island. Everyone is believed to be dead and all rescue efforts have been called off. There is no bible or other sacred religious text. There are three "religious" people on the island: a muslim, a Russian Orthodox Priest, and a protestant woman. Each try to form a religious community out of the survivors. Next I have the book skipping forward a few years, to where the children of the survivors are now adults. They have a religion (which they call Christianity), one that teaches faith in Christ alone as the savior, believes in a great prophet of God named Mohammed, and conducts formal church services in the Eastern Orthodox fashion. There is still no written "word of God" so to speak. Their ownly doctrines require believers to loved God with all their hearts and to love their neighbors as themselves. What do you think? Could make for an interesting and thought provoking read I believe.

[Guest Guest]

Friend,
When I heard the word of God preached as the KJB Bible says...
From the King James Bible...
And believed the Gospel and repented as the Bible says
Almighty God came into my heart just like the Bible says
Peace and Joy instantly flooded my soul like the Bible says
Right then and there, God put a love for His word that had NEVER been there before...like the Bible says
I became a Bible believer

God says in His Bible that if you fail to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will go to HELL.
That's a place of unimaginable anguish and horrible misery friend.
Almighty God, who holds the vast Universe in His hand, says that He is faithful....in His Bible
He wouldn't dilly dally around and give you a message that says you are going to HELL without it being absolutely true and perfect. He doesn't do things haphazard like we do.
If you are going to preach to your people that they are going to HELL...you are aren't you? Then you better use God's perfect pure word.
God says in His Bible that His Word is pure.
I don't know how to make it any plainer.

I totally don't see where this is coming from. I think you totally misunderstood the premise of my post that you quoted. Please reread it and see if it clears up any of your misunderstandings, because there appear to be quite a few.

If you don't believe the Bible, the pure word of God, then you have no firm foundation for your faith, as that is the only way that we KNOW Christ lived, died and rose again.

Tell me, what is the perfect pure word in Vietnamese? Russian? Hindi? How about Arabic? Were I a betting man, I'd put money on the fact that they don't exist. I don't understand what the issue is here. God CAN, but I don't believe He DID. The King James Bible is the 100% PERFECT WORD OF GOD, but nothing else in the universe matches or compares with it.

[Jerry]

First of all, the verse in Job is not referring to the Bible - just because it uses the same term, does not mean it deals with the same subject.

Secondly, 2 Peter says God moved the holy writers to write what He wanted them to - it does not say He inspired them - so I am not going to make or accept some doctrine on an unrelated passage.

I believe that God inspired the Word of God, and any translations and copies of that Word do not lose their inspiration - therefore my King James Bible is just as inspired by God as the original writings, no less, no more - not because they were REinspired in any sense, but because they are STILL inspired.

If I'm wrong on my statement, then I apologize; however, I don't see what's "strange" about me using that evidence, its validity aside. What one man uses to discredit the Book can easily be turned around to evidence God's power. Like my dad said: studying Greek will make you either reject the King James Bible or believe It with all your heart. I chose the latter.

The Greek behind the KJV fully supports the KJV.

What's strange is that if your argument was true, then the KJV is faulty. However, that statement by Metzer has been proven false, and admitted false by him. In solid research on the KJV, this fact is stated over and over by KJV defenders - so you are hurting, not strengthening, our cause by stating it.

[Selah]

I totally don't see where this is coming from. I think you totally misunderstood the premise of my post that you quoted. Please reread it and see if it clears up any of your misunderstandings, because there appear to be quite a few.

If you don't believe the Bible, the pure word of God, then you have no firm foundation for your faith, as that is the only way that we KNOW Christ lived, died and rose again.

Tell me, what is the perfect pure word in Vietnamese? Russian? Hindi? How about Arabic? Were I a betting man, I'd put money on the fact that they don't exist. I don't understand what the issue is here. God CAN, but I don't believe He DID. The King James Bible is the 100% PERFECT WORD OF GOD, but nothing else in the universe matches or compares with it.

:amen:

[Jerry]

I've fooled around with writing a novel based on a large passenger jet crash. A signifigant number of people survive and are stranded on an island. Everyone is believed to be dead and all rescue efforts have been called off. There is no bible or other sacred religious text. There are three "religious" people on the island: a muslim' date=' a Russian Orthodox Priest, and a protestant woman. Each try to form a religious community out of the survivors. Next I have the book skipping forward a few years, to where the children of the survivors are now adults. They have a religion (which they call Christianity), one that teaches faith in Christ alone as the savior, believes in a great prophet of God named Mohammed, and conducts formal church services in the Eastern Orthodox fashion. There is still no written "word of God" so to speak. Their ownly doctrines require believers to loved God with all their hearts and to love their neighbors as themselves. What do you think? Could make for an interesting and thought provoking read I believe.[/quote']

I don't think God wants us to be entertained by religious ecumenical trash...

People can be damned without hearing the Word of God - but no one can be saved without it. We are not saved because we "loved God with all our hearts" but because we trusted in Him and His finished work to save us. The love comes as we walk with Him and get to know Him personally. A lost person cannot love the Lord.

[Guest Guest]

First of all, the verse in Job is not referring to the Bible - just because it uses the same term, does not mean it deals with the same subject.

Secondly, 2 Peter says God moved the holy writers to write what He wanted them to - it does not say He inspired them - so I am not going to make or accept some doctrine on an unrelated passage.

I believe that God inspired the Word of God, and any translations and copies of that Word do not lose their inspiration - therefore my King James Bible is just as inspired by God as the original writings, no less, no more - not because they were REinspired in any sense, but because they are STILL inspired.

Yet I am the only one who posted any scripture on the topic of scripture. Ironic, no? Inspiration means inspiration means inspiration, and you cannot honestly tell me that those two passages mean two different things when they are CLEARLY talking about the same subject.

[Guest Guest]

I don't think God wants us to be entertained by religious ecumenical trash...

It wouldn't be to entertain, but to invoke thought about a situation, that although far fetched, is still possible. It might help to place yourself in the story Jerry. What would you do if you were stranded with a bunch of nonbelievers without a Bible?

People can be damned without hearing the Word of God - but no one can be saved without it

If by "Word" you mean Christ, then I agree. To say it otherwise would be to damn everyone to hell who died prior to the Council of Nicea.

[Jerry]

Inspiration means inspiration means inspiration' date=' and you cannot honestly tell me that those two passages mean two different things when they are CLEARLY talking about the same subject.[/quote']

No - one is talking about the inspiration of the Word of God - and the other is not; however, you are trying to force it to be the same subject so you can post something to support your wacky doctrine.



The Bible was formed way before some ecumenical/Catholic Council declared it officially. By the Word of God, I am referring to the Gospel - which every true believer throughout this church age would have had to have heard and believed/received in order to be saved.

[Guest Guest]

I wander what would happen if older text (by this I mean text older than those that the translators used in creating the KJV) were discovered that contridicted some things in the KJV. Or if something were uncovered that showed the translator manipulated the text' date=' or just plainly left somehting out/inserted something by mistake. Like what if you found a translator's diary in which he admits that he made stuff up and put in the final KJV. Could that effect whether or not it is infallible/ divinely inspired? Also, what's the opinion of the Christians existing before the KJV? Was their doctrine false by default? Were they able to receive the true word of God? It just seems that questions like these pop up anytime I try to convince myself that the KJV is the sole perfectly preserved word of God.[/quote']

Well, we could throw around hypotheticals all day long, but in the end facts are facts. God's perfect word has always existed, whether in written form or not. However, after being penned, God preserved that scripture through history in many ways. Still the Bible never existed in one perfect book, until the King James Bible was completed. Yes, there were some minor revisions to correct some scribal errors and printing errors (printing is STILL not an exact science, even with computers!), but the text of the KJB has remained almost entirely static since 1611. See "The Myth of Early Revisions," David F. Reagan.

Imagine the sci-fi concept of teleportation as an example: an object or person is placed in a machine that decodes the information into a data stream which is transmitted through the intervening space until it is reconstructed by a second machine somewhere else. God's word is settled in Heaven forever, hinting at an eternal existence, but He "transmitted" that "data" to men supernaturally (see post on Inspiration) who wrote it down. Then, God maintained the different fragments of scripture (the "data stream") through history until it all came together and was "assembled" into its final state in 1611 or thereabouts. That way, it always existed, scattered throughout the world in different languages and manuscripts, but God knew where it all was and how to bring it all together. Strange way to describe it, but that's the easiest example I could come up with off the top of my head.