Salvation according to MacArthur

[John81]

Hopefully that should clarify his position.

It should. Dwayne and I are speaking of the same book. Every attack I've ever seen against this is totally contrary to what is written in that book. I'm thankful I picked that book up at a yard sale and actually read it just for that reason.

[282Mikado]

Good post Dwayner!

Can someone explain to me what James 2 is supposed to be talking about if it is not about living and showing the fruit of your faith after being saved. My understanding is that when you are saved, the faith you have now should produce fruit (works) that should be obvious to the casual observer. Obviously people can and will backslide, but the overall tendancy should be towards living a Christ filled life and the works that would naturally come from that.

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 6:21-22

Don't these verses from Paul back James' position up?

[kevinmiller]

Excellent post Dwayne. :thumb I think you did a very good job of vindicating MacArthur. Yes, he's a Calvinist, but he's also a Christian, and a godly man.

[Bakershalfdozen]

Yes, thank you Dwayne. Not all of us are going to agree with everything John MacArthur has written or said but we should be able to discuss his writings and our beliefs/thoughts/questions about Bible passages without turning to nasty attacks on each other.

What some of you fail to remember is that

BAD ATTITUDES
CONTINUED SARCASM & MOCKING
TREATING OTHER POSTERS LIKE THEY ARE STUPID

will close down a thread quicker than anything.

99% of the time, when we close a thread, it is for the above reasons, NOT because we necessarily disagree with what is being written.


Be Biblical

Be nice!

[282Mikado]

Agreed Bakers and I apologize for my part in it.

I asked this just a couple posts ago but would like to repost in hopes of getting an answer. Obviously there are some here that don't hold to my and others interpretation of James. Could someone answer the following?

Can someone explain to me what James 2 is supposed to be talking about if it is not about living and showing the fruit of your faith after being saved. My understanding is that when you are saved, the faith you have now should produce fruit (works) that should be obvious to the casual observer. Obviously people can and will backslide, but the overall tendancy should be towards living a Christ filled life and the works that would naturally come from that.

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 6:21-22

Don't these verses from Paul back James' position up?

[LindaR]

Agreed Bakers and I apologize for my part in it.

I asked this just a couple posts ago but would like to repost in hopes of getting an answer. Obviously there are some here that don't hold to my and others interpretation of James. Could someone answer the following?

Can someone explain to me what James 2 is supposed to be talking about if it is not about living and showing the fruit of your faith after being saved. My understanding is that when you are saved, the faith you have now should produce fruit (works) that should be obvious to the casual observer. Obviously people can and will backslide, but the overall tendancy should be towards living a Christ filled life and the works that would naturally come from that.

What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Romans 6:21-22

Don't these verses from Paul back James' position up?

I agree with that interpretation, Mikado. That's what I've always been taught about the epistle of James. I don't believe that James is speaking of salvation by works, but Christian living and that works are the fruit or proof of that salvation. My :2cents

Paul doesn't contradict James. Like Jerry mentioned in an earlier post, Paul and James are on the opposite sides of the same coin.

[Guest Guest]

Here's my reply to Jerry's post; also reference my post above that.

Paul vs. James

[282Mikado]

Okay, James is not talking about saving faith, we are in agreement. I don't believe the works James talks about lead to salvation.

I believe once saved, the faith we have in our savior, our salvation, and our eternal destination will as a rule lead to works/fruit that will show the new man living within us. Yes, we are still all capable of sin and some may fall hard, but overall we will tend to works that will please our Lord, be in line with scripture and therefore show our faith.

If you do not believe this, then what is the purpose of James 2? You only tell us what it doesn't say, not what it does say.

[LindaR]

Okay, James is not talking about saving faith, we are in agreement. I don't believe the works James talks about lead to salvation.

I believe once saved, the faith we have in our savior, our salvation, and our eternal destination will as a rule lead to works/fruit that will show the new man living within us. Yes, we are still all capable of sin and some may fall hard, but overall we will tend to works that will please our Lord, be in line with scripture and therefore show our faith.

If you do not believe this, then what is the purpose of James 2? You only tell us what it doesn't say, not what it does say.

:goodpost:

[John81]

Yes, thank you Dwayne. Not all of us are going to agree with everything John MacArthur has written or said but we should be able to discuss his writings and our beliefs/thoughts/questions about Bible passages without turning to nasty attacks on each other.

What some of you fail to remember is that

BAD ATTITUDES
CONTINUED SARCASM & MOCKING
TREATING OTHER POSTERS LIKE THEY ARE STUPID

will close down a thread quicker than anything.

99% of the time, when we close a thread, it is for the above reasons, NOT because we necessarily disagree with what is being written.


Be Biblical

Be nice!

:clap:

[Guest Guest]

Okay, James is not talking about saving faith, we are in agreement. I don't believe the works James talks about lead to salvation.

I believe once saved, the faith we have in our savior, our salvation, and our eternal destination will as a rule lead to works/fruit that will show the new man living within us. Yes, we are still all capable of sin and some may fall hard, but overall we will tend to works that will please our Lord, be in line with scripture and therefore show our faith.

If you do not believe this, then what is the purpose of James 2? You only tell us what it doesn't say, not what it does say.

Last time we went down this road a mod locked the topic, and I've explained it several times (usually those threads got locked too), but basically if you'll look at the first verses of the book of James, you'll see that it's addressed to the Jews, the "twelve tribes" which are "scattered abroad." While all scripture is profitable, not all of it is written to us. Each section and book of the Bible has a doctrinal application, and not all of it applies to us in this age. Namely, Paul wrote specifically to the Church, so his books are where we should glean our doctrine. For instance, trying to apply the first part of Acts or Matthew 5 to us doctrinally is what leads to denominations like the Church of Christ, Church of God, Methodism, Presbyterianism and even Catholicism. Understanding the divisions and applications of Scripture is the basis of Rightly Dividing the Bible, as found in 2 Timothy 2:!5.

While we CAN make the spiritual application that many of you have from James, the actual doctrinal application is to a different group of people in a different time. Like has been said before, good preaching isn't necessarily good doctrine. Likewise, we can make a spiritual application from something (the Sermon on the Mount, for instance) that we could never apply doctrinally.

[Jerry]

NOT so. Paul' date=' in Romans 4, refers to this verse, saying that Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness: that's sanctification. James does NOT refer to that verse; instead he says that Abram's WORK of offering Isaac is what JUSTIFIED him. Sanctification and Justification are different things, and Abraham received them separately, while we receive them simultaneously. That is a hard, cold, irrefutable fact.[/quote']

Wow, determined to explain away what God's Word teaches, eh?

Romans 4:1-5 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You just contradicted the context of the passage where you referred to! That's justification - nothing in the passage is referring to sanctification at all - in fact, Romans 3-5 various times uses various forms of the word justify/justified. How you make that into sanctification is beyond me...

[Jerry]

1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Romans 15:2

[Jerry]

if you'll look at the first verses of the book of James' date=' you'll see that it's addressed to the Jews, the "twelve tribes" which are "scattered abroad."[/quote']

And who are those Jews that James was writing to? The Jews in the early church - it was made up of Jews first, then went to the Gentiles. In fact, this passage states when those early saved Jews/early church was scattered abroad:

Acts 8:1-4 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

Hm, the Jews in the first century church - that makes this epistle just as applicable as every other NT epistle. It was written to the church, just as the rest of the NT was.



You'd have a hard time proving anything in the Sermon on the Mount does not directly apply to the NT church. And there certainly is or will be any other group in history that it would or could apply to other than the church.

[Guest Guest]

Wow, this is exactly why I asked that James not be brought into the discussion. There are plenty of other references in Scripture that we can use to discuss the issue of "Lordship Salvation".

If James is the only Scriptural proof of this idea, then I guess I'll have to stay out of the discussion because every time Vince and I try to explain Biblical Dispensationalism and "rightly dividing" on this board, the topic gets locked.

I don't believe in Lordship Salvation. A good Christian will live a life striving to please the Saviour, but unfortunately not all saved people do that. Some people get saved, do right for a while, and then stop caring about doing right anymore. Being saved doesn't guarantee that we'll always want to serve the Lord.

The difference between saved people who "make Christ the Lord of their lives" and saved people who live a life displeasing to their Saviour, is that the faithful Christian will have greater rewards in Heaven. The lazy and unfaithful Christian will have nothing but his salvation, and he'll be ashamed someday.