Salvation according to MacArthur

[Guest Guest]

James and Paul teach the exact same thing - just opposite sides of the same coin. Paul teaches that we cannot work for' date=' earn, merit salvation in any way - but that true salvation results in changed lives, lives that now work righteousness and serve God. James says that if we have true faith then there should be works to prove it - ie. salvation is the root, works are the fruit. In this they are in perfect agreement.[/quote']

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

What's that mean, Jerry? Can faith save him? Doesn't sound like it from that passage!



NOT so. Paul, in Romans 4, refers to this verse, saying that Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness: that's sanctification. James does NOT refer to that verse; instead he says that Abram's WORK of offering Isaac is what JUSTIFIED him. Sanctification and Justification are different things, and Abraham received them separately, while we receive them simultaneously. That is a hard, cold, irrefutable fact.



I beg to differ-strongly, in fact. Sure, this is the accepted reconciliation of James vs. Paul's Epistles, but that is NOT what James says. Refer to my response above this and you'll see that Paul and James were talking about two different types of faith: one is that of Christ and the other that of a man. Your and my faith couldn't save a plagued rat, so it's the faith of Christ that saves.

No, I know you won't agree; been there, done that. But it's 100% Biblical and you're beating the air trying to argue. I used to believe the way you did, but when I found out how to believe what the Bible SAYS ALL of the time and not have to explain away stuff or spiritualize it I felt so relieved that I didn't have to elude questions anymore.

[Guest Guest]

Perhaps you could explain James 2 for us' date=' then, Vince?[/quote']

Just did; see above.



Sorry if it hurts your feelings. Psalm 119:165

I was referring to this board in general; i.e. "Online Baptist." I'll throw "Baptist" in a heartbeat; my belief is in that Book. I'm a Bible Believer before I'm anything else.

[LindaR]

Middletown Bible Church website has more information on the teachings of John MacArthur and Lordship Salvation:

WHAT MUST A SINNER DO TO BE SAVED?

What is the Gospel message according to MacArthur? According to him, what must a person do to be saved? Does his answer match Acts 16:31 or does he teach something else? Here is what he says: "Let me just say simply, that when you present the gospel, all of this Lordship discussion aside, a presentation of the gospel is simply this: you are calling on someone to TURN FROM THEIR SIN and FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST. That?s it! Turn from your sin and follow Jesus Christ!....That is all we are asking: TURN FROM YOUR SIN AND FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST....What you talk to an adult about is the same thing you tell a child: you need to turn from your sin and follow Jesus Christ" (this is transcribed from a taped question and answer session given on 9/25/90 at the Calvary Baptist Church in Brewer, Maine, Rev. Larry Pawson, Pastor).

Notice that MacArthur?s emphasis is upon WHAT MAN DOES (turning from sin, following Christ) rather than upon WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE. His emphasis is upon MAN?S COMMITMENT, rather than upon the Person and work of Christ and the response of faith to that Person and to His work. His emphasis is upon DO, but a true gospel message should emphasize DONE (John 19:30). It is not our COMMITMENT that saves us; it is CHRIST who saves us. Following Christ is a result of salvation, not a condition of salvation. Before we FOLLOW CHRIST in discipleship we must COME TO CHRIST for salvation. Before we COME AFTER CHRIST (Luke 9:23) we must COME UNTO CHRIST (Matthew 11:28). The term "BELIEVE" does not mean "turn from sin and follow Christ." It means "trust fully, rely upon, resting one?s whole weight upon the WORTH, WORD and WORK of Jesus Christ." We must not re-define saving faith to make it some kind of a "work-requirement" for salvation. Justification is for the person who "worketh not, but believeth" (Rom. 4:5).

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/salvatio/lordshjm.htm

Also, Lou Martuneac has written an excellent book on the Lordship Salvation issue: "In Defense of the Gospel". You can find more information on his blog:

Here is the passage Dr. MacArthur refers to as an ?invitation to salvation.?

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up," (James 4:7-10).

I will ask just two questions. Please feel free to reply to the questions, and comment if you like.

1) Is the epistle of James, and this passage specifically, "directed at those who are not saved," or to those who are saved already?

2) Do we find salvation by the grace of God through faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9) anywhere in James 4:7-10?

LM
http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/search/label/John%20MacArthur

[kevinmiller]

Sorry if it hurts your feelings. Psalm 119:165

1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Romans 15:2

[Guest Guest]

If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
[Romans 12;18]

Perhaps it doesn't "lieth in me." Or maybe I can't stand when people reject the Final Authority of the Bible. Whichever way, it doesn't bother me; do whatever makes you happy.

[282Mikado]

You have shown a total disregard for the brethren and the feelings of others. You do not demonstrate love for the brethren in your communication. I feel like I can not discuss anything with you until you can obey the second greatest command in the Bible.

No' date=' I know you won't agree; been there, done that. But it's 100% Biblical and you're beating the air trying to argue. I used to believe the way you did, but when[u'] I found out how to believe what the Bible SAYS ALL of the time and not have to explain away stuff or spiritualize it I felt so relieved that I didn't have to elude questions anymore.

You have to understand Kevin. MC1171611 has all the biblical answers. He knows what the Bible says "ALL THE TIME". He has no more questions. I can't wait for his commentary to come out so we can stop all the debates and questions. And of course, noone but MC ever tries to believe the Bible 100% of the time. We discuss his word on these forums so we can find ways to circuMVent His word. Tell me MC, how does it feel to have perfect understanding? I think there are a few billion people holding there breath waiting for your answer... :ears:

[Guest Guest]

You have to understand Kevin. MC1171611 has all the biblical answers. He knows what the Bible says "ALL THE TIME". He has no more questions. I can't wait for his commentary to come out so we can stop all the debates and questions. And of course, noone but MC ever tries to believe the Bible 100% of the time. We discuss his word on these forums so we can find ways to circuMVent His word. Tell me MC, how does it feel to have perfect understanding? I think there are a few billion people holding there breath waiting for your answer... :ears:

Ladies and gentlemen, it looks like we have a runner-up in the Misquoting Sarcasm contest!

Instead of trying to discredit me, why don't you stinkin' read what I said! I learned how to BELIEVE what the Bible SAYS, and BELIEVE it ALL of the time. I never said I know what It says all of the time. If I cared, I'd expect an apology for uncalled for sarcasm and misquotation, but I don't care, and I'm certainly not holding my breath.

[282Mikado]

Ladies and gentlemen, it looks like we have a runner-up in the Misquoting Sarcasm contest!

Who's number 1? you?

Instead of trying to discredit me' date=' why don't you stinkin' read what I said! I learned how to BELIEVE what the Bible SAYS, and BELIEVE it ALL of the time. I never said I know what It says all of the time. If I cared, I'd expect an apology for uncalled for sarcasm and misquotation, but I don't care, and I'm certainly not holding my breath.[/quote']

Now you are saying that you do not know what the scripture says all the time, yet you are rather militant against anyone that disagrees with your take on what James has to say, even though this debate has raged for years. Your whole bearing suggests you think you are the answer man.

By the way, I may be sarcastic (and for that I apologize), but you are down right mean and nasty. I now see why you don't believe that James says those with faith will show that faith through there works. It doesn't seem you can.

[Guest Guest]

Who's number 1? you?



If you had any interest in the topic's history here, you would know that I have been engaged repeatedly by Kevin and Jerry, and have yet to be shown anything to disprove my stance. My responses are based on occurrences in the past, things that you know nothing of.

Perhaps you should try to begin a dialogue with some courtesy; I don't begin conversations in such a nasty tone like you did.

[282Mikado]

Perhaps you should try to begin a dialogue with some courtesy; I don't begin conversations in such a nasty tone like you did.

FYI, I was in this thread before you and your very first sentence in this thread was sarcastic.

Sorry everyone else, this will be my last statement off topic or to MC.

[Guest Guest]

FYI, I was in this thread before you and your very first sentence in this thread was sarcastic.

Sorry everyone else, this will be my last statement off topic or to MC.

Maybe if someone was being a jerk to your fianc

[John81]

It looks like more of that Lordship Salvation stuff. Except it sounds more like he thinks you have to work to keep it, not just work to prove you are saved.

It's so annoying. Can't anyone see that we're supposed to work to please God, of our own free will? Our works after we're saved have NOTHING to do with our salvation...

I don't know what the elder MacArthur thought on Lordship Salvation, but his son wrote a book called "Faith Works" and as he explains Lordship Salvation, all it really means is that if you truly accept Christ as your Saviour, you will also accept Christ as your Lord and it will show by you actually obeying His Word.

The Lordship Salvation issue, according to MacArthur Jr., is mostly about being sure people are saved rather than accepting "easy believism" or the idea that a person can be saved yet live like the devil.

[John81]

"Faith Works" is written by MacArthur Jr. and if you've read the book you will notice what I previously posted to Kathie.

That's the only book by him I have, which I picked up at a yard sale for 10 or 25 cents and I actually read. It's not a great book or anything (to me, anyway) but he did do a very good job of explaining what he means by Lordship Salvation and it's absolutely NOT what most others claim it to be.

[dwayner79]

Ugh, you people.

For those who actually care what MacArthur said, here is some advice. About 5 minutes ago, I literally looked at the laptop and looked at John MacArthur's The Gospel According to the Apostles; The role of Works in the Life of Faith. I am a few chapters in, and made the decision to go online. Fitting that we seem to have these conversations during the exact times I am knee deep in the book.

There are a few here who have questioned MacArthur on being a Calvinist. For those, I can only say he is guilty as charged. He is a Calvinist. He does NOT however, make the claim, as the OP says that works are required for salvation.

You cannot rip a single sentence out of an entire book about a subject. You must read the entire book to make a claim of that nature. For this, I recommend reading The Gospel according to Jesus before reading The Gospel According to the Apostles. The first was his discourse on Lordship salvation. The second is a further explanation of works in the life of a believer (written, I assume in response to all the debate around Lordship salvation.

Since many of you will not buy the books, here is a the key passage I thought I would share. (I am typing these, so any typos are mine)

The Gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sins and yield to Christ's authority. That, in a sentence, is what "lordship salvation" teaches.

I don't like the term Lordship salvation. I reject the connotation intended by those who coined the phrase. It insinuates that a submissive heart is extraneous or supplementary to saving faith. Although I have reluctantly used the term to describe my views, it is a concession of popular usage. Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the Gospel invitation throughout Scripture.

Those who criticize lordship salvation like to level the charge that we teach a system of works-based righteousness. Nothing could be further from the truth. Although I labored to make this as plain as possible in The Gospel According to Jesus, some critics continue to hurl that allegation. Others have imagined that I am advocating a new or modified doctrine of salvation that challenges the Reformers' teaching or radically redefines faith in Christ. Of course, my purpose is just the opposite.

Therefore, let me attempt to state the crucial points of my position as plainly as possible. These articles of faith are fundamental to all evangelical teaching:
[i may shorten these because my fingers are tired... we'll see]

Salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone - plus or minus nothing (Eph 2:8-9). Sinners cannot earn salvation or favor with God (Rom 8:8). God requires of those who are saved no preparatory works or prerequisite self-improvement (Rom 10:13; I Tim 1:15). Eternal life is a gift from God [note the rest have verses, but I am not listing... ask if you want them.] Believers are saved and fully justified before faith ever produce a single righteous work. Christians can and do sin. Even the strongest Christian wages a constant and intense struggle against sin in the flesh. Genuine believers sometimes commit heinous sins, as David did in 2 Samuel 11. [/list:u] Besides those truths, I believe Scripture teaches:

Christ's death on the cross paid the full penalty for our sins and purchased eternal salvation. His atoning sacrifice enables God to justify sinners freely without compromising the perfection of divine righteousness (Rm 3:24-26). His resurrection from the dead declares His victory over sin and death (I Cor 15:54-57)

Salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own. Even faith is a gift from God, not a work of man. Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever. The object of faith is Christ himself, not only a creed or a promise. Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ. In other words, all true believers follow Jesus. Real faith inevitable produces a changed life. Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person. The nature of the Christian is different, new. The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again. The "gift of God," eternal life, includes all that pertains to life and Godliness, not just a ticket to heaven. Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith he demands involves unconditional surrender. He does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him. Those who truly believe will love Christ. They will therefore long to obey Him. Behavior in an important test of Faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real. On the other hand, the person who remains unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith. Genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith. Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again. [/list:u] This is my position on "lordship salvation." Anyone who supposes I have some deeper agenda has misunderstood what I am saying.

The gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance. Repentance is turning away from sin. It is not a work, but a divinely bestowed grace. Repentance is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well.

It is obvious to me that MacArthur has been painted with a very different brush then the one he himself painted with. The merit of the teaching can be discussed (apparently not without name calling here), but to make the claim that MacArthur's position is different then what I just retyped, is plain WRONG.

[Guest Guest]

Hopefully that should clarify his position. :wink