Revelations

[Jerry]

Some of the references are not God speaking. Sorry I don't buy into that higher criticism junk that teaches some of what God said does not mean what He said.

In regards to people serving the Lord and standing before Him - they are still doing that before Him in Heaven, so those verses are still applicable.

"1 Chronicles 23:13 The sons of Amram; Aaron and Moses: and Aaron was separated, that he should sanctify the most holy things, he and his sons for ever, to burn incense before the LORD, to minister unto him, and to bless in his name for ever."

This type of thing was done away with in the NT.

"2 Chronicles 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel."

Again,in the NT, Paul says that these things were done away with.

There are still OT verses that speak about the Levites serving the Lord during the Millenium (and even making offerings on new moons and sabbaths) - and we know all true believers will serve Him and pray to Him (which is what the offering of incense pictured) forever.

"Ecclesiastes 2:16 For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool."

Scripture says that the righteous will be established and that the name of the wicked shall rot so this is not speaking of the eternal. "For ever" in this passage means on earth.

Context - this is referring to the view of man under the sun - and yes, the remembrance of men of past ages is lost to man over time.

There are more examples but this is enough for now. In a nut shell due to all the verses about the earth being destroyed, passing away, etc. I think the verses that promise the land of Israel "for ever" are speaking only as far as it will exist.

Many of these people never even saw the fulfillment of these promises in their lifetimes - and it is during the Millenium that they will see some of these fulfilled. So you are saying God promised them something forever, but literally meant only for 1000 years. I don't buy that.

[Guest Guest]

Some of the references are not God speaking.

Agreed, but even given that this verse is God speaking directly:

"1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed."

Hard to get around that. "For ever" clearly didn't mean eternally in this case.

Sorry I don't buy into that higher criticism junk that teaches some of what God said does not mean what He said.

Neither do I. I just don't think he said what you think he did.

There are still OT verses that speak about the Levites serving the Lord during the Millenium (and even making offerings on new moons and sabbaths)

True, but I don't think either you or I believe they need to do that today. So if they don't need to do it today it wasn't a eternal command.

and we know all true believers will serve Him and pray to Him (which is what the offering of incense pictured) forever.

Yes and no, it is what the offerings pictured, but a picture is different than the real thing. The passages were speaking of the picture.

Context - this is referring to the view of man under the sun - and yes, the remembrance of men of past ages is lost to man over time.

My point exactly. In like manner the passages on the land being given to Israel "For ever" must be viewed in the context of the rest of scripture which clearly teaches that the earth will pass away.

[lettheredeemedsayso]

The current heavens (ie. atmosphere, and perhaps outer space as we know it) and the current earth will be destroyed - (ie. burned up, with all trace of sin removed). This time it will be by fire - and we see some of this destruction in the book of Revelation, especially chapter 20. Then comes the new heaven and new earth - which will be a renovated heaven and earth (it will still be the same earth - ie. globe - as God's promises to Abraham and his descendants include possessing the land forever, and Jesus ruling forever from Jerusalem.

2 Peter 3:5-13 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

bro jerry, the chapter says that the

elements

shall melt with a fervent heat. is this the same elements that all matter is made of? it also says the earth is burned up. does that mean that it will be purged or completely destroyed? is the new earth the result of a purged earth or a totally new earth where righteousness shall dwell?

[Jerry]

The Bible teaches that the heavens (ie. atmosphere) will be burned up. The word for new in Revelation 21:1 means "new (especially in freshness.) The idea here is renovated. Are we getting new bodies in Heaven or the same bodies glorified. Looking at Jesus' case would answer that.

"1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed."

Hard to get around that. "For ever" clearly didn't mean eternally in this case.

Sure it does - the person is still walking before the Lord in Heaven, is he not?

The Bible does not teach the earth will be done away with - just this present world system, and the current state of things (materially). Remove all trace of sin, with all sinners eternally in Hell, and this verse is just as applicable to a renovated (ie. renewed) earth:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The original earth was destroyed - yet this is the same heavens and earth that existed before the flood, though there were some serious changes made in its state. The same thing will happen after the tribulation - at the start of the Millenium - and after the Great White Throne judgment.

[Guest Guest]

Sure it does - the person is still walking before the Lord in Heaven, is he not?

Ummm.... he said "but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me" that just said that it wasn't eternal. The fact that he had relatives "walking before the Lord in Heaven" is not important to this passage, it is not what the passage is speaking of, it is speaking of the earthly priesthood of his line.

[Jerry]

Basically, you want us to believe that God didn't mean forever when He said forever, right? I have only heard that view pushed by liberals and higher critics trying to explain away the Bible (and no, I am not saying or implying you are either - as I do not believe you are - it is only from them I have heard this argument before though). So where do you draw the line? Who is to say which passages about forever actually are forever and which ones aren't? Seems a dangerous road to start walking down to me... :eek

[Guest Guest]

Basically, you want us to believe that God didn't mean forever when He said forever, right?

No, I am saying that you are not correctly understanding "for ever" in scripture. Note that the word "forever" that you are using is not found in scripture. Only "For ever" is found. Now that may seem nit picking, they are very close in meaning, but actually the very small difference is somewhat significant. "forever" in today's English usually means eternally(except in casual conversation) but the old "for ever" does not always have to. Look up the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words in the OT and the NT and you will find that it can be an "age" or period of time, although often long, and indeed sometimes eternal, yet not ALWAYS endless. Another example of this usage would be Jonah.

"Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God."

Here Jonah said it was "for ever". Yet it was only three days... So either he was exaggerating or it is being used as a "long period of time" or a "age". I am sure three days would seem a very long time in his position. A age can be endless or have a definite end depending on the situation.

[lettheredeemedsayso]

The Bible teaches that the heavens (ie. atmosphere) will be burned up. The word for new in Revelation 21:1 means "new (especially in freshness.) The idea here is renovated. Are we getting new bodies in Heaven or the same bodies glorified. Looking at Jesus' case would answer that.



Sure it does - the person is still walking before the Lord in Heaven, is he not?

The Bible does not teach the earth will be done away with - just this present world system, and the current state of things (materially). Remove all trace of sin, with all sinners eternally in Hell, and this verse is just as applicable to a renovated (ie. renewed) earth:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The original earth was destroyed - yet this is the same heavens and earth that existed before the flood, though there were some serious changes made in its state. The same thing will happen after the tribulation - at the start of the Millenium - and after the Great White Throne judgment.

Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Here it says that heaven and earth will both pass away?

[Jerry]

Yes - but what does that mean? That the current state of things will be destroyed, that there will be no more of this earth - or does it just mean that this earth surface will be transformed and the atmosphere burned up and renewed. That is what I believe it means, as it takes into account all the verses dealing with the earth. The other conclusion causes contradictions within the Bible itself - and we know God's Word is inerrant and that there are no contradictions in it.

[Disciple Maker]

John saw the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth. Exactly what this entails we are not sure, but we can be sure that the old is no more. The Greek word kainos (kahee-nos') is used instead of the Greek word neos. Kainos means new in kind, while neos simply means new in time.

?17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy? (Isaiah 65:17-18).

?22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh? (Isaiah 66:22-24).

John probably saw a new planet he called earth being created. He then saw something else that he was informed was the New Jerusalem (v 9-10). Perhaps the New Jerusalem is inside the new Earth. It was probably spherical as well, but it dimensions were beyond John?s ability to estimate or comprehend so the angel talking with John measures it to give him the real scope of its size.

The ?gates? John saw in the walls were probably giant circular openings that appeared like giant pearls to him. It was the only word he had to describe them. Each of these gates bore a name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel. The 12 foundations of the wall are probably 12 layers in its thickness. If the wall is 144 cubits thick that would mean each layer was 12 cubits thick or about 18 feet thick making the composite wall 216 feet thick. Each layer bares the names of one of the twelve apostles.

Within each layer there are various colors emanating that John describes as ?precious stones.? In other words, what appears to him is the results of what these precious stones would produce if light from the inside shined through the transparency of the wall. There is probably something between these layers that make the layers apparent and that creates this optical effect. The overall appearance of the wall is like ?jasper.? Again, the light emanates from within this sphere and shines through the wall. Light shining through jasper produces a green-white effect. This is probably the same effect John saw in Revelation 4:2-3.

?2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald? (Revelation 4:2-3).

I believe this New Jerusalem is the New Heaven where God will dwell and where His Throne will be. It will be suspended in space with entrances in its walls. It will be lighted by the glory of God from within. The redeemed will live on the inside in the presence of their Heavenly Father and His Son. It is the ?place? Christ went to prepare for us in John 14:2.

?In my Father?s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you? (John 14:2)

The size of the New Jerusalem is immense. Making it relevant to our comprehension is difficult. Depending on the length we use for a ?furlong? (Greek stadion, stad'-ee-on; 582 feet or 600 feet; or 18th of a Roman mile. It was the length of one lap around the Olympic course), the New Jerusalem could be as much as 1,365 miles across in all four directions. However, if this is spherical this may be the radius of the sphere that would make this a globe with a diameter of approximately 2,730 miles (the present earth is 3,960 miles in diameter).
The Greek word tetragonos (tet-rag'-o-nos, translated ?foursquare?) simply means four-cornered. The earth is round, but yet is referred to as having four corners. This probably refers to the four directions: North, East, South and West.

?And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth? (Isaiah 11:12).

?And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree? (Revelation 7:1).

Another possibility is that this is a six-sided cube, with twelve levels of a thousand furlongs each. With transparent walls, the glory of God would shine through in all directions, creating a global effect. Each level would have about 2,000,000 square miles of living space, or about half of the area covered by the United States (3,621,707 sq. miles). If that were the case, the total living space would be equal to over six times that of the United States with over 1 mile between the levels. Whatever it may be, its size is enormous with plenty of room for all God's redeemed.

There is significance to the twelve foundation stones of the city also. This significance is that the walls are a memorial to the righteous works of believers and the work of the Holy Spirit in them and through them. The local church of the Church Age is an embryonic form of the New Jerusalem.

?12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man?s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man?s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man?s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man?s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Corinthians 3:12-16)?

As God dwells within the New Jerusalem, His glory will shine through the transparent walls and each layer ?garnished? with these precious stones that continue as a testimony to the faithfulness of Jesus Christ and His saints. Collectively they will provide a rainbow of colors: The Jasper; greenwhite, the Saphire; blue, the Sardius; blood red, the Chrysolite; transparent gold, the Beryl; sea green, the Topaz; transparent yellowgreen, the Chrysoprasus; another shade of green, the Jacinth; violet and the Amethyst; purple. This rainbow of colors will be an everlasting testimony to faithfulness of our God in keeping His promises and covenants.

[Jerry]

Perhaps the New Jerusalem is inside the new Earth. It was probably spherical as well' date=' but it dimensions were beyond John?s ability to estimate or comprehend so the angel talking with John measures it to give him the real scope of its size.[/quote']

The Bible teaches that the new Jerusalem comes down from Heaven to earth - that certainly doesn't have it fitting or being inside the earth.



The Bible doesn't teach that the gates were LIKE pearls, but were pearls; nor that the foundations were LIKE precious stones, but were made of precious stones. There is no reason not to take the descriptions in Revelation 21 literally.



The description gives length and breadth - which means it was a square, not a circle. One dimenion (radius) does not fit. Nor does the passage state that it's length, breadth AND height were the same. Why not take the Bible for what it says.

Revelation 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

[Disciple Maker]

Brother Jerry,

Good to hear from you again.

The words "like unto" or "like" is common language in the Book of Revelations.

As to the New Heaven/Earth being circular, that is conjecture. It could be square. However, I am sure it is three dimensional. The probability is it will be a cube or a sphere, either being twelve layers with the Throne of God at its center and the glory of God shining through the translucent layers. The measurements given are just the New Jerusalem, not the whole New Heaven/Earth.

Re 1:13
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Re 1:14
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;


Re 1:15
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Re 2:18
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine
brass;

Re 4:3
And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Re 4:6
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Re 4:7
And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

Re 9:7
And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

Re 9:10
And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Re 9:19
For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

Re 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Re 13:2
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Re 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Re 13:11
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Re 14:14
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Re 16:13
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Re 18:18
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Re 18:21
And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Re 21:11
Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Re 21:18
And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

[Jerry]

I know there are many comparisons made in the book of Revelation - but the few points I differed on were not comparisons, but actual outright statements: gates of pearl, not like pearl, etc.

I was thinking about my previous reply, and I apologize for being a bit abrupt/rude in my response. I should have asked some questions to clarify, rather than posting what I did.

[Me4Him]

It does say "to put my name there for ever;"

In scripture, "Mountain" represents "KINGDOM".

I've been told that a satellite photo of Jerusalem reveals that the "terrian" (mountains) around Jerusalem are in the form of the 21th letter of the Hebrew alphabet,

which BTW, is the Hebrew letter for "GOD".