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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

What God's Word says About Election

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In order to post on this thread, you must provide at least two or more verses of Scripture to support what you believe the Bible says about God's election. Only the doctrine of Election is to be discussed in this thread.

There were two streams of thought on Sola Scriptura coming out of the Reformation.

1. Whatever the Bible does not disallow, we allow.
2. Whatever the Bible confirms we affirm.
These are radically different positions. The first resulted in a Proof Text Theology. In other words, the already established beliefs of Roman Catholicism were brought to the Scriptures and whatever beliefs the Word of God did not disallow, were continued with proof texts. This was the methodology of Luther and Calvin.

The second position was the position of the Anabaptists. This was not a Proof Text Methodology. In this position of Sola Scriptura, a belief could only become dogmatic based upon the weight of Scriptural evidences from the exegesis of a verse within the context it is found. Verses could not be pulled out of their context for a proof text. This was based upon the Scriptural premise of God's Word that says, "that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established" (Matthew 18:16b). This is known an an Inductive Methodology.

Therefore, in this thread, every statement of beliefs must be based upon the exegesis of at least two portions of Scripture. The exegesis of those two texts must be explained and shown after which a conclusive statement of beliefs taken directly from those texts can be stated. Discussion must formulate around the exegesis of the texts in order to question the conclusive statement of beliefs. Do not respond to a post until you have read everything the person you are responding to has said and after you have read each verse of Scripture referred to and after you have evaluated those Scriptures in their context.
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Since the fall of Satan, the world has had an enemy intent upon opposing the divine order that God established in His original creation. Humanity was divided into two seeds and descendants from those two seeds. These two seed lineages would war against each other until the end of time to the Great White Throne Judgment. God cursed the seed lineage from Satan and promised His eternal blessings upon the Seed lineage from the Promised One (Messiah).

Since Satan had already declared war upon God?s dominion decree in giving dominion of His creation to Adam and Adam?s descendants, when Adam chose to disobey God, he relinquished the dominion of the original creation to Satan. From that point forward in time, the world was divided into two factions. Sin caused/created the division, but God?s righteousness brought condemnation (curse) upon sin putting the ?enmity? between the two seed lineages.

?14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent {Satan in the serpent}, Because thou hast done this {deceived Eve and taken dominion of the first creation away from Adam}, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity {hateful hostility; i.e. war} between thee {Satan in the the serpent} and the woman, and between thy seed {Satan in the the serpent} and her seed {the Promised One}; it {enmity, the warfare} shall bruise {break or crush; referring to a fatal blow} thy {Satan in the serpent} head {rule or dominion}, and thou {Satan in the serpent} shalt bruise his {the Promised One} heel {that instrument that would crush the ?head? of the serpent or Satan?s dominion; i.e, the death, burial, and resurrection of the Promised One}? (Genesis 3:14-15).
The Promised One is God?s Son, chosen (elected) from the ?foundation of the world? (Revelation 13:8) to be both the Redeemer of the lost and a new and ?last Adam? (I Cor. 15:45-50) to restore the dominion relinquished to Satan by Adam?s sinful choice. The Promised One (the ?last Adam?) would be successful where the first Adam failed. The Promised One would be the ?firstborn? (Romans 8:29; Col. 1:15-18) of a New Genesis (Matthew 19:28) and would become a ?door? (John 10:1-9) into this New Genesis to ?whosoever? of fallen humanity willing to believe in His death, burial, and resurrection, repent of sin, confess Him as LORD, call on Him to save them, and be supernaturally ?born again? (John 3:3-7, I Peter 1:23) ?by grace through faith? (Eph. 2:8-9) into the New Genesis ?in Christ? (I Cor. 12:12-13; Christ now having primogeniture that provides inheritance of glorification into the New Genesis; Acts 26:18, Eph. 1:11-18, Col. 1:12, 3:24 and, I Peter 1:2-5). Therefore, this whole group that would become the descendants of the Seed of the Promised One ?through faith? (Eph. 2:8-9) would become the elect ?in Christ? (Eph. 1:3-4, II Tim. 1:9).
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I like your rule making, but the rules for this board has already been made. I am only making suggestion, for I'm just a member of this messages board like you are.

The owner of this board has already made rules for this board, they can be found at this link.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24

I feel that we should not make our own rules, but perhaps best of all if we think of a rule that needs to be added, probably the best course of action would be to PM Bro. Matt and mention it to him. I feel he would really appreciate that instead of us trying to set our on rules as we post messages.



Election, that is an easy one, whosoever will is of the elect, or that is whosoever will can be save, not just certain ones hand picked as some teach, those people disregard verses that declare that anyone can be saved them go on to try and condemn many to hell saying they have not choice in the matter that God limited who can be save, that is condemning some to hell because they were not of the elect.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-16 (KJV)

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:8 (KJV)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1 Tim 1:16 (KJV)

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 (KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 (KJV)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely
Rev 22:17 (KJV)

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 4:14 (KJV)

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:38 (KJV)

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:41 (KJV)

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32 (KJV)

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:8 (KJV)

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I like your rule making, but the rules for this board has already been made. I am only making suggestion, for I'm just a member of this messages board like you are.

The owner of this board has already made rules for this board, they can be found at this link.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24

I feel that we should not make our own rules, but perhaps best of all if we think of a rule that needs to be added, probably the best course of action would be to PM Bro. Matt and mention it to him. I feel he would really appreciate that instead of us trying to set our on rules as we post messages.




It is ok to specify what you want to specifically talk about in a thread. The OP wasn't making rules for the board, just specifying what he wants this thread to be about.
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I like your rule making, but the rules for this board has already been made. I am only making suggestion, for I'm just a member of this messages board like you are.

The owner of this board has already made rules for this board, they can be found at this link.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24

I feel that we should not make our own rules, but perhaps best of all if we think of a rule that needs to be added, probably the best course of action would be to PM Bro. Matt and mention it to him. I feel he would really appreciate that instead of us trying to set our on rules as we post messages.



Election, that is an easy one, whosoever will is of the elect, or that is whosoever will can be save, not just certain ones hand picked as some teach, those people disregard verses that declare that anyone can be saved them go on to try and condemn many to hell saying they have not choice in the matter that God limited who can be save, that is condemning some to hell because they were not of the elect.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-16 (KJV)

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:8 (KJV)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1 Tim 1:16 (KJV)

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 (KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 (KJV)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely
Rev 22:17 (KJV)

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 4:14 (KJV)

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:38 (KJV)

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:41 (KJV)

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32 (KJV)

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:8 (KJV)
You have not shown how any of these verses connect to election or election to salvation. You have merely quoted a number of verses that say "whosoever" can be saved (to which I wholeheartedly say, AMEN!). However, what does this have to do with God's election?
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I have to disagree a bit with the criteria of scripture, since I've seen many times where people will misquote scripture to attempt to defend a position, yet ignore logic. I don't think we are ever to use scripture apart from logic, because it opens the door for misuse. However, often we find ourselves relying on logic in times when scripture is silent. The true meaning of scripture will always be logical, therefore a good grasp of foundational logic aids in understanding scripture.

Here's an example...

Q. Can we lose our salvation?
A. If, on Monday we get "saved" and on Tuesday sin, and on Wednesday die in our sin and go to hell, what then, were we ever saved from on Monday? Wouldn't therefore it be illogical to claim one is "saved" when they can still suffer the fate they are claimed to be "saved" from? So if salvation can ever be known, it must be secure and not something that can ever be taken away. So the question is not can one lose one's salvation, but can one ever know one is actually saved, this side of death? And the answer to that question is in [bible]1 John 5:13[/bible]


...now while I used scripture at the very end, it was only to close the door on the only logical alternative left. The rest of the explination used only logic.

Much of the contention regarding Election resides also in logic. It is (if you'll pardon using this to describe it) a philosophical debate regarding which has prominence, Man's free will or God's sovereignty. And are they mutually exclusive. It's almost the exact same debate between Skinnerian and Rogerian psychotherapists. One contends we are controlled by outside forces, the other contends that we control our environment. But with election we have a third alternative--that God Himself can, and often does, provide us with situations that seem mutually exclusive, yet are both true. The result is a razor-thin truth sandwiched between what we mistakenly assumed were contradictory concepts.

As you've already seen, it's fairly easy to use a Bible search to find verses containing a "proof" word of phrase, and hurl those, yet without thought, it is meaningless.

Fear of the term "Calvinist" comes from the same place fear of the term "Election" comes from--the notion that it eleiminates all free will from the equation of salvation. (It doesn't, but the fear creates the argument)

What I find so amuzing is that in the grand scale of things, our free will may amount to nothing more than the decision a child makes when he decides he doesn't like it when his diaper is soiled. He's still a very, very long way form any sort of mature response to the situation, yet, as any parent of a toddler knows, even that bit is exciting in its promise of change. But it will be the parent, not the child that remedies the situation. Maybe the child will be boastfull in that "I told mommy I went poo-poo" but he remains an infant in need of a good cleaning, just as we remain sinners in need of a Savior to do for us what we could never hope to do for ourselves.

To me the argument of Election is like arguing who's responsible for the child having a clean diaper, the child or the mother.
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I have to disagree a bit with the criteria of scripture, since I've seen many times where people will misquote scripture to attempt to defend a position, yet ignore logic. I don't think we are ever to use scripture apart from logic, because it opens the door for misuse. However, often we find ourselves relying on logic in times when scripture is silent. The true meaning of scripture will always be logical, therefore a good grasp of foundational logic aids in understanding scripture.

Here's an example...



...now while I used scripture at the very end, it was only to close the door on the only logical alternative left. The rest of the explination used only logic.

Much of the contention regarding Election resides also in logic. It is (if you'll pardon using this to describe it) a philosophical debate regarding which has prominence, Man's free will or God's sovereignty. And are they mutually exclusive. It's almost the exact same debate between Skinnerian and Rogerian psychotherapists. One contends we are controlled by outside forces, the other contends that we control our environment. But with election we have a third alternative--that God Himself can, and often does, provide us with situations that seem mutually exclusive, yet are both true. The result is a razor-thin truth sandwiched between what we mistakenly assumed were contradictory concepts.

As you've already seen, it's fairly easy to use a Bible search to find verses containing a "proof" word of phrase, and hurl those, yet without thought, it is meaningless.

Fear of the term "Calvinist" comes from the same place fear of the term "Election" comes from--the notion that it eleiminates all free will from the equation of salvation. (It doesn't, but the fear creates the argument)

What I find so amuzing is that in the grand scale of things, our free will may amount to nothing more than the decision a child makes when he decides he doesn't like it when his diaper is soiled. He's still a very, very long way form any sort of mature response to the situation, yet, as any parent of a toddler knows, even that bit is exciting in its promise of change. But it will be the parent, not the child that remedies the situation. Maybe the child will be boastfull in that "I told mommy I went poo-poo" but he remains an infant in need of a good cleaning, just as we remain sinners in need of a Savior to do for us what we could never hope to do for ourselves.

To me the argument of Election is like arguing who's responsible for the child having a clean diaper, the child or the mother.
So, what then are you saying? Are you saying that your beliefs regarding the doctrine of election are not based upon the Word of God, but upon your logic? Is there any exegesis of any Bible text that you base this logic upon? Or, are you just pulling your beliefs out of your own mind? I would think you might attempt to find a least some Bible truths to Proof Text those beliefs, even if you are not willing to do the work of inductive exegesis.
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You have not shown how any of these verses connect to election or election to salvation. You have merely quoted a number of verses that say "whosoever" can be saved (to which I wholeheartedly say, AMEN!). However, what does this have to do with God's election?


But they do, they show it clearly, whosoever believeth can be save, which refutes those who claim only the elect can be saved & everyone else is predestinated to hell.
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But they do, they show it clearly, whosoever believeth can be save, which refutes those who claim only the elect can be saved & everyone else is predestinated to hell.
Brother Jerry,

I agree with what you are saying. However, you are make a leap of logic without connecting it Scripturally to the doctrine of election. You might say something like, "since we have such weight of Scriptural evidence to the contrary, election CANNOT refer to God choosing some people to be saved and others to damnation. Election must refer to something else other than salvation." I do not want to put words in your mouth, but this appears to be what you are saying. If that fact is true, what do the verses mentioning God's election/choosing mean? There are literally hundreds of verses mentioning God's choosing or electing in the Scriptures. Can we show Scriptural evidences that this is in fact the truth that salvation is not the issue of election as the verses you quote appear to teach?
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I will respond eventually, but someone posted something on another board that got me really angry, and I don't want to respond while I'm still in that mood. (A mother of a teenager with CAH was asking if her son could still serve in the military. Someone claiming to be from the UK asked why anyone would want to serve in the US military since the commit war crimes. It later turned out to be a flamer, posing as someone with CAH to annoy and insult people. That someone would want to pose as someone with a serious health condition so they could annoy and offend others with that condition is bad enough, but to further insult all Americans by claiming our military commits war crimes, just really got my goat)

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Brother Jerry,

I agree with what you are saying. However, you are make a leap of logic without connecting it Scripturally to the doctrine of election. You might say something like, "since we have such weight of Scriptural evidence to the contrary, election CANNOT refer to God choosing some people to be saved and others to damnation. Election must refer to something else other than salvation." I do not want to put words in your mouth, but this appears to be what you are saying. If that fact is true, what do the verses mentioning God's election/choosing mean? There are literally hundreds of verses mentioning God's choosing or electing in the Scriptures. Can we show Scriptural evidences that this is in fact the truth that salvation is not the issue of election as the verses you quote appear to teach?


Yes, but these verses prove what election can't mean. Election cannot mean that God chose some to be saved, others to go to hell because they have no choice in the matter. Proving that shows that Calvinist teachings are false teaching. I notice those of the Calvinist persuasion will not believe that, that is they dismiss these verses and keep right on believing the TULIP doctrine.

I wasn't trying to prove what election was, I was proving what election was not.
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I have begun to put up my new book on Dispensationalism and the Doctrine of Election on my web site. This will be about a 347,000 word document when it is totally up. We will be adding a new chapter about every week as the Web Master formats them.

The link to these studies is below:
http://disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/DispensationalismIndex.htm

The Introduction and first two chapters are up presently. There is a link to a Comments page at the bottom of each Chapter. If you would like to add a comment, you can click on the link and do so.

If you want to be notified when a new chapter is up, sign up for notifications on the Line Upon Line Blog and you will be notified by e-mail (link below):
http://lineuponlinedmm.blogspot.com/

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So, what then are you saying? Are you saying that your beliefs regarding the doctrine of election are not based upon the Word of God, but upon your logic? Is there any exegesis of any Bible text that you base this logic upon? Or, are you just pulling your beliefs out of your own mind? I would think you might attempt to find a least some Bible truths to Proof Text those beliefs, even if you are not willing to do the work of inductive exegesis.

Sorry for taking so long to respond. The family was hit with the flu, and I still had to try to work through it so it took longer to recover.

What I'm trying to say is that the basics are agreed on. The differences are philosophical and not scriptural.

We all agree that salvation is provided by God. We all agree that it then requires a choice on our part. We all agree that the work of salvation is what God does, and our part is simply accepting His grace, through faith, which then produces obedience and growth. The difference lies it how much He does, and how little we do. It's not a difference based on any scripture, but on the philosophical problem people have with the extent of God's involvement.

An Atheist once said that he didn't understand how Christians could worship a God that killed all those innocent children in Egypt. I responded by saying we worship a God that was directly involved in every single death of every single human being that has ever died, and I wondered why he drew the line at Egyptian children. If God is actually God, A. all powerful, B. all knowing, and C. loving, then it would stand to reason that regardless of how we perceived what he does, logic would demand that it was for a good reason. we have all kinds of examples of we as parents doing things our children perceive as evil, but are for their own good. Why would that logic not also extend to how little we can comprehend God?

So the problem is one of the idea that while God did send His Son to die on the cross, some people cannot accept the idea that God would still allow people to go to hell, when there was something else He could do to prevent it. I can only assume that must be based on a failure to comprehend that we all truly do deserve hell, and even were the entire human race to have gone to hell, it wouldn't have been a bad thing, because we would have received exactly what we deserved.

Some resolve this lack of comprehension by rejecting God altogether. Others resolve it by limiting God and refusing to acknowledge His sovereignty, pretending that somehow we can over power God and go to hell against His will. But the objection to election isn't scriptural, it's philosophical, and therefore it can't be defended with scripture, since those who reject it, have already rejected scripture in order to pacify their sensitive philosophical palate.
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