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I would liketa respond to the following post:





Wilchbla wrote:

steel, why do you insist that you are a fundamentalist all the time when you reject two major tenets of fundamentalism.

1) Preservation of scripture without error.

2) Eternal security

Plus you reject dispensationalism which may not be one of the tenets but is important in understanding the word of God and you postition concerning the nation of Israel is iffy.

Wilchbla


First, I have never said Scripture is not preserved w/o error. If you believe I have, please cut/paste any post from the several million I have made over the years on thousands of sites. But if ya want, we can discuss that in the IFB forum is I can get clearance to post there, so let's discuss the following here:

Second, does your Bible have Hebrews 6:4-6 in it? Those verses describe a Christian & plainly say one can fall away. Let's look at'em in the KJV:

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Please note the bolded portions. No unsaved person is made a partaker of the Holy Spirit. And one is renewed unto repentance only by being saved.

Now, I agree 110 % that NO external power nor being can remove a Christian from Jesus' hand. But one can let go on his own! Thus saith the LORD thru Paul, or whoever wrote Hebrews. Like it or not, Sportzz Fanzz, this is GOD'S saying & not something some man made up. And I'm fully aware of all the verses the OSAS people cite, but they all say in so many words that GOD won't leggo on His own, nor reject anyone. Not one of them counters Heb. 6;4-6.

We are sinking in a sea of sin. God has provided a Lifeguard in the person of His own Son, Jesus Christ. If we come to Him for rescue, He will keep us from sinking, without fail, until the time comes for us to be pulled outta that "sea" onto God's "land", either by our death or by the rapture. But we can leggo of Him, and if any of us do, He will not come after us.

Some use the excuse of "that person was never REALLY saved". However, in light of the words of Hebrews 6:4-6 that's just not so.

Again, it's not *MY* argument; it's understanding those SCRIPTURES as written.

We can discuss dispensationalism & my Scriptural view of Israel in another thread if ya wish. We oughtta keep this'n on Hebrews 6:4-6, if it's OK with y'all.
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We are sinking in a sea of sin. God has provided a Lifeguard in the person of His own Son, Jesus Christ. If we come to Him for rescue, He will keep us from sinking, without fail, until the time comes for us to be pulled outta that "sea" onto God's "land", either by our death or by the rapture. But we can leggo of Him, and if any of us do, He will not come after us.


So let me make sure I understand what you are saying. You are saying unless a believer persists in hanging on to God they loose their salvation right? That is a works based salvation and wrong even by your own analogy. Is a lifeguard going to let those he is responsible for drown if they have swallowed to much water and don't hang on to him? If so he is a poor lifeguard. This reminds me of a song. It is called "I'm not holding on to Jesus". Good song. The saved believer can't lose his salvation because it isn't his to lose. It has nothing to do with the believers works and everything to do with Christs work.

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


Jesus made a promise and Gods word is true. In short, what part of "everlasting life" don't you understand? :smile If you will pardon me for stating the obvious, life that can be lost is not everlasting life.

If you misread these passages and say they mean we must continue in belief to "obtain" everlasting life as some say you still must face this biblical truth.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Then there is the whole "Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness" study. That was a one time act of faith by which he was permanently justified.
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BUT............................................

What happens if one ceases to believe God? Abraham apparently believed Him his whole life. Solomon abandoned God for idols, as did the later king Asa.

Again, an unsaved person is NOT made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, nor 'renewed unto repentance'.

And BELIEF isn't a "work". It's a state of mind.

While God said thru James that faith without worx is dead, He was speaking of those able to perform good worx. The repentant thief on the cross beside Jesus could do no work at all, nor be baptized,but Jesus saved him because of his FAITH & BELIEF.

I'm not speaking of one who becomes complacent about God, ceasing to attend church, etc. I'm speaking of one who ABANDONS HIS BELIEF IN GOD, turning his back on Christ completely. 'Tis easy to say such a person never had any true faith to begin with, but that's just an excuse.

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BUT............................................

What happens if one ceases to believe God? Abraham apparently believed Him his whole life. Solomon abandoned God for idols, as did the later king Asa.

Again, an unsaved person is NOT made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, nor 'renewed unto repentance'.

And BELIEF isn't a "work". It's a state of mind.

While God said thru James that faith without worx is dead, He was speaking of those able to perform good worx. The repentant thief on the cross beside Jesus could do no work at all, nor be baptized,but Jesus saved him because of his FAITH & BELIEF.

I'm not speaking of one who becomes complacent about God, ceasing to attend church, etc. I'm speaking of one who ABANDONS HIS BELIEF IN GOD, turning his back on Christ completely. 'Tis easy to say such a person never had any true faith to begin with, but that's just an excuse.


You are not answering a single scripture in my post. Why? because they can have no reasonable answer from your point of view. As far as salvation is concerned a Christian can't lose it because it isn't his to lose. The believer belongs to God. If I may borrow loosely from the teachings found in 1 Corinthians 6, know ye not that ye are not your own? The believer is bought with a price, his body and Spirit are Gods. Mark 3:27 teaches you can't spoil a strong man possessions unless you first bind the strong man, so unless you are able to overpower the might of God you have no more power to jump out of the fathers hand than Satan has power to pluck you out. The Father is greater than all, and the blood of Christ when applied once covers all sins eternally. Everlasting life. Christ is enough.

You have the truth, but you are rejecting it. If you are trusting in your ability to hang on to Christ for your salvation take heed. You can't add one ounce of works to salvation or else the whole is the filthy rags of self righteousness. This is truly one of the most basic fundamentals of the faith.
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You are going under the assumption that Hebrews 6:4-6 is referring to eternal life. However, there is no indication of that. Your view of this passage especially loses ground when taking into consideration that Hebrews does not even talk about eternal life, not just in chapter 6, but through the whole book!

Secondly, the pronouns are plural(i.e. they, them, their, etc.). That is significant since the book of Hebrews is addressing Hebrews in Christ's New Testament church who are considering going back to the old covenant worship instead. If they had fallen away and returned to the old, how could they continue to take part in the new covenant that Christ started? If that church that consisted of Hebrews went back to the synagogue, to the old, how could they receive the blessings of the new and reform as a church after disbanding to return to the old?

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The Bible says "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to keep that which I have COMMITED unto HIM against that day." I don't think you can get any more plain than that. If I had a religion that couldn't assure me salvation then I'd trade it for a goat and shoot the goat. If we can't trust Jesus when he said "these things have I written unto you that ye might KNOW that ye have (not will have and not might have) eternal life" then we can't trust him when he said in my Father's house are many mansions. When Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED" He meant it and there is nothing we can do to deviate from HIS finished work. To say that you can lose your salvation is to say that God isn't wise enough to keep you. No man can pluck you from the Father's and since He holds the universe in the palm of His hand have fun trying to jump out.
John 10:27-30; Romans 7:25; 2 Timothy 1:12; Psalm 130:3

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This isn't MY idea; it's in the SCRIPTURES. It's not as if I'm making stuff up.

Is any UNSAVED person made a "partaker of the Holy Spirit"?

Is an unsaved person "renewed unto repentance"?

Now, Paul, or whoever wrote hebrews wasn't writing his own thoughts-he was writing what he'd LEARNED FROM GOD. And, while we all agree that nothing nor no one can pull us from Christ, it's apparent from those verses that one can turn his back on Christ after being saved.

If not, then just WHY do they say it's impossible to AGAIN renew such a one to repentance??????

Friends, I am simply reminding you of what the SCRIPTURES say. I am NOT inventing doctrine nor presenting the words of man.

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Hmm. Interesting. A discourse on once saved, always saved. Let me make a few comments, sir:
(John 10:28-29) - "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

First, sir, God's Word says those saved by His grace shall never perish. Second, it says we are in Christ's hand, and also in God's hand. If you think you can squirm your way out of God's hand, well then, sir, that's quite an impressive feat. However, it's also an impossible one.

Furthermore, sir, the Bible says...(1 John 2:18-19) - "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. {19} They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Take especial notice of the second verse. Notice it says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for they had been of us, they would have no doubt continued with us."

Also, sir, let me tell you this: No Christian who is living, ever has lived, or ever will live deserved God's grace and mercy. You did not deserve salvation, nor did I. It was by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Why should it be free, but we then have to work to keep it? After all, we constantly fail God.

In conclusion, sir, let me say this: If we could lose God's gift of salvation, which we did not deserve in the first place, Heaven would be completely empty. Because, from Paul to the most backslidden Christian, we're all sinners, and we all fail God.

No one deserves it, and no one deserves to keep it. But, by the grace of God, we are sealed until the Day of Judgment. I'm glad my God is powerful enough to keep me saved. And, if you're a Christian, yours is too, whether you want to admit it or not.

Sir, there's just simply no way of getting around it. Eternal life you can lose is not eternal life.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

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This isn't MY idea; it's in the SCRIPTURES. It's not as if I'm making stuff up.

Is any UNSAVED person made a "partaker of the Holy Spirit"?

Is an unsaved person "renewed unto repentance"?

Now, Paul, or whoever wrote hebrews wasn't writing his own thoughts-he was writing what he'd LEARNED FROM GOD. And, while we all agree that nothing nor no one can pull us from Christ, it's apparent from those verses that one can turn his back on Christ after being saved.

If not, then just WHY do they say it's impossible to AGAIN renew such a one to repentance??????

Friends, I am simply reminding you of what the SCRIPTURES say. I am NOT inventing doctrine nor presenting the words of man.


Robycop its not that we are not looking at the Scripture that you gave. In fact, I believe that it was explained very well.

You are going under the assumption that Hebrews 6:4-6 is referring to eternal life. However, there is no indication of that. Your view of this passage especially loses ground when taking into consideration that Hebrews does not even talk about eternal life, not just in chapter 6, but through the whole book!

Secondly, the pronouns are plural(i.e. they, them, their, etc.). That is significant since the book of Hebrews is addressing Hebrews in Christ's New Testament church who are considering going back to the old covenant worship instead. If they had fallen away and returned to the old, how could they continue to take part in the new covenant that Christ started? If that church that consisted of Hebrews went back to the synagogue, to the old, how could they receive the blessings of the new and reform as a church after disbanding to return to the old?



I would incourage you to look also at the first few verses of that chapter and compair it with the verses that I gave you.

The Bible says "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to keep that which I have COMMITED unto HIM against that day." I don't think you can get any more plain than that. If I had a religion that couldn't assure me salvation then I'd trade it for a goat and shoot the goat. If we can't trust Jesus when he said "these things have I written unto you that ye might KNOW that ye have (not will have and not might have) eternal life" then we can't trust him when he said in my Father's house are many mansions. When Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED" He meant it and there is nothing we can do to deviate from HIS finished work. To say that you can lose your salvation is to say that God isn't wise enough to keep you. No man can pluck you from the Father's and since He holds the universe in the palm of His hand have fun trying to jump out.
John 10:27-30; Romans 7:25; 2 Timothy 1:12; Psalm 130:3


And this sir is the last time I will post and I encourage others to post only twice. The Bible says that we are to give an heritic only two admonishions and if you reject this admonision then I will have to reject you according to Scripture.
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BUT............................................

What happens if one ceases to believe God? Abraham apparently believed Him his whole life. Solomon abandoned God for idols, as did the later king Asa.

Again, an unsaved person is NOT made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, nor 'renewed unto repentance'.

And BELIEF isn't a "work". It's a state of mind.

While God said thru James that faith without worx is dead, He was speaking of those able to perform good worx. The repentant thief on the cross beside Jesus could do no work at all, nor be baptized,but Jesus saved him because of his FAITH & BELIEF.

I'm not speaking of one who becomes complacent about God, ceasing to attend church, etc. I'm speaking of one who ABANDONS HIS BELIEF IN GOD, turning his back on Christ completely. 'Tis easy to say such a person never had any true faith to begin with, but that's just an excuse.


It passage never suggests that anyone stops believing in God.
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Hey robycop, what's up?

I once heard the argument that Judas (the son of perdition) could be considered the Holy Spirit's partaker (being that he was chosen by Christ to partake in [or is it "of"] his ministry). It might be a long shot, but it's certainly an interesting argument from a different perspective that I never heard of until just now. You can read more here: http://doulogos.blogspot.com/2009/01/do ... at-is.html

God bless, Brother.

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So you know why I don't believe the OSAS doctrine.

Robycop, what commentaries have you read on this passage? Just trying to get an idea where you're coming from. None of the commentators I've looked up think it is saying what you think it is saying. How much have you studied these verses?
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You are going under the assumption that Hebrews 6:4-6 is referring to eternal life. However, there is no indication of that. Your view of this passage especially loses ground when taking into consideration that Hebrews does not even talk about eternal life, not just in chapter 6, but through the whole book!

Secondly, the pronouns are plural(i.e. they, them, their, etc.). That is significant since the book of Hebrews is addressing Hebrews in Christ's New Testament church who are considering going back to the old covenant worship instead. If they had fallen away and returned to the old, how could they continue to take part in the new covenant that Christ started? If that church that consisted of Hebrews went back to the synagogue, to the old, how could they receive the blessings of the new and reform as a church after disbanding to return to the old?



Let me be more clear. I believe fully that eternal life is ETERNAL. However, I do not believe Hebrews 6:4-6, or the book of Hebrews, for that matter, is dealing with eternal life. I believe it is addressed to those who ALREADY have eternal life. Furthermore, this is not signifying a loss of eternal life, but a loss of INHERITANCE. Let's look further in the book to see if this holds true. We go on to read in chapter 12 about Esau who "for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."
Did it say Esau lost his eternal life? IT WASN'T TALKING ABOUT ETERNAL LIFE!!! It's talking about inheritance. You can lose what God would have for you as an inheritance, and not be able to gain that back. This does not mean you lost your eternal life. There will be plenty who will get no reward/inheritance when they get to the Bema seat. Their walk of faith here will determine whether they do or not. And at that time don't plan on God just changing his mind("renewed unto repentance").
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King Saul was a partaker of the Holy Ghost and still went to hell as did Judas Iscariot. They just didn't have the abiding Comforter.


King Saul went to hell? Can you validate that theory with scriptures?

Also, can you confirm for me that Judas Iscariot was a partaker of the Holy Ghost? Thanks!
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King Saul went to hell? Can you validate that theory with scriptures?

Also, can you confirm for me that Judas Iscariot was a partaker of the Holy Ghost? Thanks!


Judas Iscariot had power to cast out devils. Jesus said this could only be done "by the finger of God." So Judas must of had the Holy Ghost to perform this.(luke 11:20)

As far as Saul,

I Samuel 16:14- But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

The Holy Ghost doesn't depart from the Christian but abides in him until the day of redemption. David prayed that God wouldn't take the holy spirit from him and God didn't. This is why our salvation is called "the sure mercies of David" in the book of Acts. David's salvation was a foreshadow of ours. Saul didn't have the any sure mercies from God.
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I believe JI was a prime example of what Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about. He let GREED take over in his life, despite having seen Jesus in action & heard mosta His sermons. I believe some of his motivation was that he believed jesus was gonna use His power to overthrow the Roman rule over the Jews. When He didn't do it, Judas was deeply disappointed. Judas threw away his salvation! JESUS didn't let him go; JUDAS let go of JESUS!

And NO, "keeping the faith" is NOT 'working" for one's salvation, any more than one's coming to Christ in the first place is. It is keeping one's focus upon JESUS, seeking to obey and emulate Him as much as possible. OF COURSE it takes some work, but it CERTAINLY is NOT salvation based upon how "good" one is! It's salvation based upon one's BELIEF AND FAITH IN CHRIST as Lord, Savior, Son of God, and being himself God with His father & the Holy Spirit. he calls upon us to REPENT OF OUR SINS, which could be called a 'work' by some. And He said thru His bro James that FAITH WITHOUT WORX IS DEAD. Again, this is NOT "working to keep one's salvation"! It is CONTINUING IN THE FAITH one orifinally had to have come to Christ to begin with.

Hebrews 6-4-6 isn't speaking of the 'backslider' who's become lax in his focus on Christ & who doesn't think of Him as often as he should-it's about those who totally and deliberately TURN THEIR BAX ON HIM, rejecting Him completely, after they were saved. Big difference in the saved backslider who's become indifferent towards God & the person who, after being saved, SPURNS Him, not believing in Jesus any more.

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Judas Iscariot had power to cast out devils. Jesus said this could only be done "by the finger of God." So Judas must of had the Holy Ghost to perform this.(luke 11:20)

As far as Saul,

I Samuel 16:14- But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

The Holy Ghost doesn't depart from the Christian but abides in him until the day of redemption. David prayed that God wouldn't take the holy spirit from him and God didn't. This is why our salvation is called "the sure mercies of David" in the book of Acts. David's salvation was a foreshadow of ours. Saul didn't have the any sure mercies from God.


Concerning Saul, that verse needs to be understood contextually with 1 Samuel 10:6-10. Samuel told Saul that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon him and he would prophesy as the prophets. Nothing to do with salvation, brother. If it wasn't referring to salvation in 1 Samuel 10:6-10, then it certainly wasn't referring to a loss of salvation in 1 Samuel 16:14. Context is important. Suppose you would say 1 Samuel 10 was referring to salvation. This would make you a Calvinist also since Samuel would then be telling Saul that he's going to get saved and how it's going to happen. What choice does Saul have in the matter then? However, if he was already saved, and if this is referring to some special abilities being conferred upon him by the Spirit of the Lord being upon him, and later departing from him, then this is certainly not dealing with salvation.

Concerning Judas, it was Christ who gave them all the ability to cast out devils. He told them to do so in his name. Luke 11:20 is not saying someone needs the Holy Ghost in them to cast out devils. That would be a far stretch from that verse. Also, having the authority to cast out devils is no indication of one's own heart condition. I see no verse that would support that.
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I believe JI was a prime example of what Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about. He let GREED take over in his life, despite having seen Jesus in action & heard mosta His sermons. I believe some of his motivation was that he believed jesus was gonna use His power to overthrow the Roman rule over the Jews. When He didn't do it, Judas was deeply disappointed. Judas threw away his salvation! JESUS didn't let him go; JUDAS let go of JESUS!

And NO, "keeping the faith" is NOT 'working" for one's salvation, any more than one's coming to Christ in the first place is. It is keeping one's focus upon JESUS, seeking to obey and emulate Him as much as possible. OF COURSE it takes some work, but it CERTAINLY is NOT salvation based upon how "good" one is! It's salvation based upon one's BELIEF AND FAITH IN CHRIST as Lord, Savior, Son of God, and being himself God with His father & the Holy Spirit. he calls upon us to REPENT OF OUR SINS, which could be called a 'work' by some. And He said thru His bro James that FAITH WITHOUT WORX IS DEAD. Again, this is NOT "working to keep one's salvation"! It is CONTINUING IN THE FAITH one orifinally had to have come to Christ to begin with.

Hebrews 6-4-6 isn't speaking of the 'backslider' who's become lax in his focus on Christ & who doesn't think of Him as often as he should-it's about those who totally and deliberately TURN THEIR BAX ON HIM, rejecting Him completely, after they were saved. Big difference in the saved backslider who's become indifferent towards God & the person who, after being saved, SPURNS Him, not believing in Jesus any more.


Robycop,

That's just peachy that you believe all those things. However, if you wish to have others believe the same as you, then please provide some sort of evidence in the scriptures to make a case for what you believe. I have provided Hebrews 12 dealing with Esau as clear evidence that Hebrews 6 is contextually dealing with inheritance and not eternal life. Can you find something in Hebrews closer to Hebrews 6 that would show to the contrariwise? If not, then I believe this discussion is pretty well come to a finale. As always, I invite you or anyone else for that matter to prove me wrong with scriptural evidence and I will reconsider my position.
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'Tis very simple-Hebrews 6:4-6 stands on its own. When the verses are "taken" at their literal face value, their meaning is very clear. they need no other Scriptures to augment them.

Once again, are unsaved people made partakers of the Holy Spirit?

Does recovering from backsliding crucify Christ afresh?

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'Tis very simple-Hebrews 6:4-6 stands on its own. When the verses are "taken" at their literal face value, their meaning is very clear. they need no other Scriptures to augment them.

Once again, are unsaved people made partakers of the Holy Spirit?

Does recovering from backsliding crucify Christ afresh?


Robycop,

Let's try this again.

-We both agree that Hebrews 6 is dealing with believers. It is dealing with people who are saved.

-However, you are contending that it is implying a loss of eternal life. You have yet to provide any scriptural backing with the verses surrounding Hebrews 6 to prove your case.

-I am contending that Hebrews 6, is to be taken in context with the whole book(Hebrews). Since the whole book is dealing again and again with a walk of faith in the new covenant, and brings up examples that deal with a loss of inheritance as the consequence for not doing so, then I am expounding that Hebrews 6 maintains the general theme of the book and does not go off on some tangent. I have gone on to give just a small fraction of the evidence backing my position found all throughout Hebrews. Not only does Hebrews not mention eternal life through the whole book; it also goes on to mention several examples of inheritance being lost(Esau losing the birthright, fathers correcting their children: Hebrews 12:9 and 10 "but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.") as well as using the word inheritance speaking of Abraham and his walk of faith(Hebrews 11:8) and furthermore a much more direct assertion of this point in Hebrews 9:15 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which were called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

Not eternal life, brother: eternal inheritance. The Holy Ghost didn't make any mistake in his usage of words.
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Concerning Saul, that verse needs to be understood contextually with 1 Samuel 10:6-10. Samuel told Saul that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon him and he would prophesy as the prophets. Nothing to do with salvation, brother. If it wasn't referring to salvation in 1 Samuel 10:6-10, then it certainly wasn't referring to a loss of salvation in 1 Samuel 16:14. Context is important. Suppose you would say 1 Samuel 10 was referring to salvation. This would make you a Calvinist also since Samuel would then be telling Saul that he's going to get saved and how it's going to happen. What choice does Saul have in the matter then? However, if he was already saved, and if this is referring to some special abilities being conferred upon him by the Spirit of the Lord being upon him, and later departing from him, then this is certainly not dealing with salvation.

Concerning Judas, it was Christ who gave them all the ability to cast out devils. He told them to do so in his name. Luke 11:20 is not saying someone needs the Holy Ghost in them to cast out devils. That would be a far stretch from that verse. Also, having the authority to cast out devils is no indication of one's own heart condition. I see no verse that would support that.


Sorry, I believe, no Holy Spirit- no salvation. The Spirit did not permently reside with the O.T. saint. Not until Christ's promise of the Comforter did this occur. When David committed his gross sins he prayed that God would not take his holy spirit away from him. In the context of Pslam 51 it refers to salvation. I will say though that I don't believe you can prove definitively either way whether Saul was saved or not. But God's spirit departing from him, an evil spirit in it's place, going to the witch of Endor (death under the law), his being cremated (a bad sign in the OT), his corpse being hung up (a sign of being cursed of God),his rebellion against God, his hatred of David all points to his LOSING his salvation.
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Sorry, I believe, no Holy Spirit- no salvation. The Spirit did not permently reside with the O.T. saint. Not until Christ's promise of the Comforter did this occur. When David committed his gross sins he prayed that God would not take his holy spirit away from him. In the context of Pslam 51 it refers to salvation. I will say though that I don't believe you can prove definitively either way whether Saul was saved or not. But God's spirit departing from him, an evil spirit in it's place, going to the witch of Endor (death under the law), his being cremated (a bad sign in the OT), his corpse being hung up (a sign of being cursed of God),his rebellion against God, his hatred of David all points to his LOSING his salvation.



You couldn't loose your salvation in the OT any more than you can lose it in the NT. Salvation has always been based on believing God and never was based on works: righteousness unto life could never come by the law. As an example Sampson didn't lose his salvation when the Lord departed from him when his hair was cut, but he lost the power of God. The story of Sampson is a good reminder for Christians today on the importance of holiness in the Christian life.
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You couldn't loose your salvation in the OT any more than you can lose it in the NT. Salvation has always been based on believing God and never was based on works: righteousness unto life could never come by the law. As an example Sampson didn't lose his salvation when the Lord departed from him when his hair was cut, but he lost the power of God. The story of Sampson is a good reminder for Christians today on the importance of holiness in the Christian life.


Personally, I believe people in all dispensations have been saved and have been kept eternally secure the same way throughout all ages.........
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Sorry, I believe, no Holy Spirit- no salvation. The Spirit did not permently reside with the O.T. saint. Not until Christ's promise of the Comforter did this occur. When David committed his gross sins he prayed that God would not take his holy spirit away from him. In the context of Pslam 51 it refers to salvation. I will say though that I don't believe you can prove definitively either way whether Saul was saved or not. But God's spirit departing from him, an evil spirit in it's place, going to the witch of Endor (death under the law), his being cremated (a bad sign in the OT), his corpse being hung up (a sign of being cursed of God),his rebellion against God, his hatred of David all points to his LOSING his salvation.



Don't know why you're sorry, seeing we agree on this point(no Holy Spirit- no salvation). If you read carefully what I said, I was making the point that Saul was saved before and after the Holy Ghost came onto him and, in the same fashion, departed from him.

The Holy Ghost coming on someone to grant them the ability to perform an otherwise impossible task is very different from the Holy Ghost indwelling the believer. Like you, I would agree that the Holy Ghost isn't going to come onto a non-believer. If you wish to examine this more, read about the guy who made the ark of the covenant(Exodus 31). The Spirit of God filled him for the purpose of having the supernatural ability to make all of the furniture and the ark of the covenant exactly as God would have them do.

However, I would disagree with you that Saul lost his eternal life just because the Holy Spirit departed from him, taking away his ability to prophesy. He may have done some bad things that have other temporary and permanent consequences; but what kind of eternal life is not eternal? The scriptures did not make any indication that his eternity would be with the non-believer, so why make such supposition?
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My pastor just did a sermon on this passage a couple of weeks ago. He basically agreed with what JJJ is referring to, that this passage is about loss of inheritence.
The premise is a warning to backsliding believers that, while all their sins have been forgiven though salvation, they will be held accountable for all sins they commit after being saved. Christ can't be crucified again to blot out your sins a second time. My pastor said that it's basically cautioning against the "I can do whatever I want because I will be forgiven" attitude.

I'm sorry I don't have my notes with me to supply supporting verses, so that's just the nutshell version. I will look for my notes if anyone requires them.

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Hello InTruth. Thanks for joining the discussion. Just wanted to elaborate a little more on what the Holy Ghost has revealed to me on these verses.

There are certainly consequences for all of our actions, some temporary, some permanent. Good rewards for a life of faith, and no reward for a life of carnality. I'll give you a bit of the background on Hebrews that might help to expand the understanding of this book.

Imagine you are part of a congregation in the first century that consists mostly of Hebrews. You are also a Hebrew. You remember how before the new covenant came(the new testament assembly) you would meet at the synagogue where the priests performed the sacrifices. There was elaborate furniture and nice food at the feasts. You remember how you were taught as a child that taking part in the (old) covenant how there were promises of Israel inheriting and ruling the earth. There were other promises too. But you could only get in on those promises if you kept the feasts and performed the Mosaic sacrifices and laws.

Also, early on in your life as a Jew, you had repented and trusted that God would provide a sacrifice for your sins. Later in your life when you heard about how Jesus the Christ had died on the cross and rose again, your heart had leaped for joy and the Spirit in you bare witness that it was the will of God.

However, now you are no longer part of that old covenant since you haven't been to the synagogue in several years. So those promises no longer apply to you. But in the new covenant you are now meeting in caves and attics. You are meeting in discretion because the sanhedron in concord with the Roman government has declared Christianity to be illegal. In fact, there have been several of the sisters and brethren in your assembly who have been executed. There are also many who have quit and left for a more comfortable life. In fact, there are many complaining and talking about how things used to be in the synagogue worship. There is also fear that has crept in. There are some who are bitter because it was their own family members who were executed. So things aren't going too well. But you recall those who met with Jesus and how he told them that they could inherit the kingdom of God if they kept Christ's commandments. Christ commanded them in all things and in the new covenant worship: the New Testament church. So desiring to please God and Christ, you made sure to get baptized and take part in serving the congregation the Lord has placed you in.

But even now they are talking about disbanding and going back to the synagogue. With this background, now read Hebrews and you may be able to better appreciate what the Holy Ghost was dealing with. All the references to the Old Testament are intended for a well-learned Hebrew audience.

God bless!

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I would liketa respond to the following post:





Wilchbla wrote:

First, I have never said Scripture is not preserved w/o error. If you believe I have, please cut/paste any post from the several million I have made over the years on thousands of sites. But if ya want, we can discuss that in the IFB forum is I can get clearance to post there, so let's discuss the following here:

Second, does your Bible have Hebrews 6:4-6 in it? Those verses describe a Christian & plainly say one can fall away. Let's look at'em in the KJV:

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Please note the bolded portions. No unsaved person is made a partaker of the Holy Spirit. And one is renewed unto repentance only by being saved.

Now, I agree 110 % that NO external power nor being can remove a Christian from Jesus' hand. But one can let go on his own! Thus saith the LORD thru Paul, or whoever wrote Hebrews. Like it or not, Sportzz Fanzz, this is GOD'S saying & not something some man made up. And I'm fully aware of all the verses the OSAS people cite, but they all say in so many words that GOD won't leggo on His own, nor reject anyone. Not one of them counters Heb. 6;4-6.

We are sinking in a sea of sin. God has provided a Lifeguard in the person of His own Son, Jesus Christ. If we come to Him for rescue, He will keep us from sinking, without fail, until the time comes for us to be pulled outta that "sea" onto God's "land", either by our death or by the rapture. But we can leggo of Him, and if any of us do, He will not come after us.

Some use the excuse of "that person was never REALLY saved". However, in light of the words of Hebrews 6:4-6 that's just not so.

Again, it's not *MY* argument; it's understanding those SCRIPTURES as written.

We can discuss dispensationalism & my Scriptural view of Israel in another thread if ya wish. We oughtta keep this'n on Hebrews 6:4-6, if it's OK with y'all.


I have a question regarding this

1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

How do you interpret this verse. I was written to believers.
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