Disturbing trend

[Anon]

I have seen a disturbing trend on this board and also in "real life". I hope everyone will understand my post as not being written in anger or meanness, but out of genuine concern. My biggest concern has been seeing this trend (which I will explain) in pastors and others in full time ministry.

Our main complaint of neoevangelicism is the fact that they often change their beliefs or way of doing things in order to attract/keep the most people. However, I see this in our circles today as well.

More and more I hear "People's schedules are just too tight to attend church faithfully, so we should really schedule less things. After all, its just a church building, and its really not the pastors job to tell people when to come to church anyway." This is not "logic", this is neoevangelicalism that has seeped into our IFB circles. Look back fifty years and see if this would have been accepted in just about any Baptist circle of any stripe! I was saved in a GARBC church 25 years ago in which the people were more faithful to church and outside ministries than most IFB members are today!

More and more I hear pastors say "Well I like my wife to wear skirts but I don't preach it because I don't think its in the Bible." What? That's very new as well. We don't want to preach it, because we know people won't listen anyway right? In 25 more years these same preachers will be avoiding homosexuality since they know it won't "change anything" anyway. Because after all, the verses we've used in the past to support our beliefs were in a "different culture" and "don't apply".

More and more I hear "There's really nothing wrong with moderate CCM. We should really stop being so strict and just let people worship God in their music." Neo! Neo! Neo! Look back fifty years! Look where we've come!

And now, page after page after page on whether tithing is really necessary? After decade after decade after century of born again Christians faithfully giving a tithe and beyond to God?

Its my opinion that Americans have gotten so stubborn that pastors are weary of the fight and have decided they will loosen up certain things in order to keep the people they have. Americans are selfish, stubborn, and materialistic. Myself included. We want our pants, ladies...we want our schedules, men. We want our music...we want our money (but gas prices are so high! Surely God doesn't require us to tithe AND drive to church three times per week!) and we want our time. We want to do just enough for God to soothe our conscience that yes, we are a "good Christian".

I fear so many of us will be ashamed someday at the judgement seat of Christ.

[bzmomo7]

I totally get where you're coming from, Suzy...........and even on here, I wonder how long it will be before someone accuses you of being "divisive"? We're losing ground every day. :sad

[Pastorj]

I agree with you to an extent Suzy.

I believe that we must stand unashamedly on the Word of God. Where Scripture is clear, we must not waver. Where Scripture is not clear, we cannot be dogmatic.

Here is a couple examples.
Scripture is clear on stealing, lying, etc.
Scripture does not say "Women, thou shalt not wear pants."

The Bible is full of principles that guide our daily life. There is only one interpretation fo any passage. However, there can be multiple applications and these applications can be different for each individual.

Here's another example.
In the 1930's a woman wearing slacks was considered a harlot. So preacher preached that wearing slacks was a sin, and it was. It was not a sin because they were slacks, it was a sin because it made her look like a harlot. Clothes change from generation to generation. What was appropriate in Bible times, would be sin today. Men don't wear robes, except in Muslim countries. If I were to go to Walmart in the clothes that Jesus wore, I would probably be thrown out of the store.

With all this said, I do believe that churches are not preaching the whole counsel of the Word of God out of fear of making people mad. For the rest of us, preachers must preach the Word of God and allow God to change lives.

Pastor J

[Jerry]

It's sad - I have seen this too. Many professing Christians have stopped standing for what they used to.

Oh, this belief rocks the boat - so I guess it is not as important anymore. The world's getting worse, and our church is the only one that believes or practices such and such - might as well let it go. Don't let anyone else draw any BIblical lines for you - that is just so intolerant and unloving. Let's just all be one, united together - forget doctrine, it divides. Forget this or that because it also divides. Let's just have a drink, listen to some CCM, play some shoot-em-up games, then watch The Passion...

[Guest Guest]

I have seen a disturbing trend on this board and also in "real life". I hope everyone will understand my post as not being written in anger or meanness, but out of genuine concern. My biggest concern has been seeing this trend (which I will explain) in pastors and others in full time ministry.

Our main complaint of neoevangelicism is the fact that they often change their beliefs or way of doing things in order to attract/keep the most people. However, I see this in our circles today as well.

More and more I hear "People's schedules are just too tight to attend church faithfully, so we should really schedule less things. After all, its just a church building, and its really not the pastors job to tell people when to come to church anyway." This is not "logic", this is neoevangelicalism that has seeped into our IFB circles. Look back fifty years and see if this would have been accepted in just about any Baptist circle of any stripe! I was saved in a GARBC church 25 years ago in which the people were more faithful to church and outside ministries than most IFB members are today!

More and more I hear pastors say "Well I like my wife to wear skirts but I don't preach it because I don't think its in the Bible." What? That's very new as well. We don't want to preach it, because we know people won't listen anyway right? In 25 more years these same preachers will be avoiding homosexuality since they know it won't "change anything" anyway. Because after all, the verses we've used in the past to support our beliefs were in a "different culture" and "don't apply".

More and more I hear "There's really nothing wrong with moderate CCM. We should really stop being so strict and just let people worship God in their music." Neo! Neo! Neo! Look back fifty years! Look where we've come!

And now, page after page after page on whether tithing is really necessary? After decade after decade after century of born again Christians faithfully giving a tithe and beyond to God?

Its my opinion that Americans have gotten so stubborn that pastors are weary of the fight and have decided they will loosen up certain things in order to keep the people they have. Americans are selfish, stubborn, and materialistic. Myself included. We want our pants, ladies...we want our schedules, men. We want our music...we want our money (but gas prices are so high! Surely God doesn't require us to tithe AND drive to church three times per week!) and we want our time. We want to do just enough for God to soothe our conscience that yes, we are a "good Christian".

I fear so many of us will be ashamed someday at the judgement seat of Christ.

Good post. Well-conceived and written even better. I agree with nearly everything you said in this post. It is a shame that truth is not being proclaimed in the streets and aloud from the rooftops - as long as it is truth and not an opinion that is posing as truth. I also am curious as to why you only look at the past fifty years. I mean, to avoid hypocrisy, we should really look back even farther, no? I am certain that if we do just that, we will see the immense number of man-made "doctrines" and opinions becoming "conviction" in, most especially, Christian churches during that "past fifty years".

As Baptists we abhor the Catholic church and its damning doctrine, but we don't mind imitating the church in our views of traditionalism. I have even heard very prominent speakers say that they were "more Catholic than charismatic or evangelical". Huh? I'm not disagreeing with you - just merely showing that there are two sides to every coin, or else the coin would be imbalanced.

In light of, what may seem to be, my criticism (which is really only my view) - this was an excellent post. I'd say that I agreed with about 85% of it...and that's good for me. :lol Oh, and spot on, pastorj!

[bzmomo7]

It's sad - I have seen this too. Many professing Christians have stopped standing for what they used to.

Oh, this belief rocks the boat - so I guess it is not as important anymore. The world's getting worse, and our church is the only one that believes or practices such and such - might as well let it go. Don't let anyone else draw any BIblical lines for you - that is just so intolerant and unloving. Let's just all be one, united together - forget doctrine, it divides. Forget this or that because it also divides. Let's just have a drink, listen to some CCM, play some shoot-em-up games, then watch The Passion...

:thumb Yes, preach it, Brother Jerry! The issue goes way far beyond the pants issue. Everyone just seems to be concerned with how closely they can live like the world and still get to heaven. There is no concern for even learning basic doctrine...........people just don't care, and are too wrapped up in the world. I think that is why so many people are confused on so many issues.

[brosmith]

I wonder how long it will be before someone accuses you of being "divisive"?

I have been accused many times of being divisive over saying the same things.

Romans 16:17 is often quoted as a point of reference. We are to mark those who cause division and offences contrary to the doctrine which we have learned and avoid them. There are things taught in independent fundamental Baptist churches that are contrary to the doctrine which I have learned. When these issues are brought up, I am the one who is marked as causing divisions and offences.

[HappyChristian]

If I were to go to Walmart in the clothes that Jesus wore, I would probably be thrown out of the store. Pastor J

Actually, no you wouldn't, PastorJ!! It is becoming commonplace to see transgender males in dresses. I think it's interesting that most transgender males wear dresses rather than pants when they dress like a woman, isn't it? It is the cry of many non-transgender males (it really is getting prevalent...google it and you will see) that they want the freedom that dresses and skirts can bring, and, after all, women got their freedom to dress in pants, why not men in dresses? That really is their cry.

Now, if in the '30', pants on women was a sin, but not now, then in just a few short years, dresses on men won't be a sin. Because it's the culture, you know.

As you mentioned, PastorJ, there are principles in the Bible. Many times there are not outright commands, but the principle of something comes through loud and clear. Such as - there is no command against smoking, but we know it's wrong because of the fact that our bodies are not ours, and smoking damages it, right?

Everyone just seems to be concerned with how closely they can live like the world and still get to heaven.

Boy, is that a fact!!! And it's justified by saying we have liberty in Christ, so we can do this thing. Personally, I'd rather stay as far away from identification with the world as I can.

As I said in another post in another thread, (and this might sound like a contradiction to the above paragraph, but it isn't) Christianity has become obsessed with the outward and neglected the inner life to a great degree. A real relationship with Christ needs to be cultivated...and then what's inside will come out (kinda like a full glass of water...keep pouring in that water and it overflows).

[Pastorj]

Happy,

i agree with the fact that we need to preach that sin is sin. When God says it, preachers should say it. The problem is that there are many things that preachers say are sins, when in reality, God doesn't elevate it sin. My job as pastor is to preach the truth (the Word of God) and allow the Holy Spirit to bring conviction in an individuals life. I have told my people that if they are offended by the truth of the Word of God, then I will not apologize. If I offend them by something I do or say, I regret it completely and want to make it right.

Romans says "let God be true and every man a liar". The point is that we are to obey the Word of God completely without hesitation. Let's just make sure that what we are teaching/preaching is God's Word and not just how God has applied it to our life.

My pastor growing up used to preach that it was a sin for a woman to ever wear slacks. Just not found in Scripture. What is found is that women should look like women, they should be covered (neck to knees), and they should be modest (garments loose and flowing). That is Scripture. If an individual feels convicted to wear only skirts as an application of these principles, then that is great. However, for me to say that pants are a sin would be wrong.

I am not intending to get into a pants/dress debate. This is just one of Suzy's points.

I agree 100% on church attendance. Heb 10:25 makes it clear that we are not to neglect assembling.

[John81]

Happy,

i agree with the fact that we need to preach that sin is sin. When God says it, preachers should say it. The problem is that there are many things that preachers say are sins, when in reality, God doesn't elevate it sin. My job as pastor is to preach the truth (the Word of God) and allow the Holy Spirit to bring conviction in an individuals life. I have told my people that if they are offended by the truth of the Word of God, then I will not apologize. If I offend them by something I do or say, I regret it completely and want to make it right.

Romans says "let God be true and every man a liar". The point is that we are to obey the Word of God completely without hesitation. Let's just make sure that what we are teaching/preaching is God's Word and not just how God has applied it to our life.

My pastor growing up used to preach that it was a sin for a woman to ever wear slacks. Just not found in Scripture. What is found is that women should look like women, they should be covered (neck to knees), and they should be modest (garments loose and flowing). That is Scripture. If an individual feels convicted to wear only skirts as an application of these principles, then that is great. However, for me to say that pants are a sin would be wrong.

I am not intending to get into a pants/dress debate. This is just one of Suzy's points.

I agree 100% on church attendance. Heb 10:25 makes it clear that we are not to neglect assembling.

:amen:

[Guest Guest]

Happy,

i agree with the fact that we need to preach that sin is sin. When God says it, preachers should say it. The problem is that there are many things that preachers say are sins, when in reality, God doesn't elevate it sin. My job as pastor is to preach the truth (the Word of God) and allow the Holy Spirit to bring conviction in an individuals life. I have told my people that if they are offended by the truth of the Word of God, then I will not apologize. If I offend them by something I do or say, I regret it completely and want to make it right.

Romans says "let God be true and every man a liar". The point is that we are to obey the Word of God completely without hesitation. Let's just make sure that what we are teaching/preaching is God's Word and not just how God has applied it to our life.

Great post, and it is even better once we understand that it applies to every area in our life. I know that I need that constant reminder.

[HappyChristian]

PastorJ, I wasn't wanting to get into that debate, either. I was just pointing out that men are beginning to wear dresses now, so you wouldn't be arrested for it if you did it. Maybe in your town, you would be run out...don't know how big the area is where you live!

And though it may not have sounded like it, I was agreeing with everything else you said!! And I agree with 99 and 99/100 of what you just said, as well! :thumb

...it is even better once we understand that it applies to every area in our life. I know that I need that constant reminder.

Don't we all, Vir!!! Amen.

[Anon]

i agree with the fact that we need to preach that sin is sin. When God says it, preachers should say it. The problem is that there are many things that preachers say are sins, when in reality, God doesn't elevate it sin. My job as pastor is to preach the truth (the Word of God) and allow the Holy Spirit to bring conviction in an individuals life. I have told my people that if they are offended by the truth of the Word of God, then I will not apologize. If I offend them by something I do or say, I regret it completely and want to make it right.

Romans says "let God be true and every man a liar". The point is that we are to obey the Word of God completely without hesitation. Let's just make sure that what we are teaching/preaching is God's Word and not just how God has applied it to our life.

My pastor growing up used to preach that it was a sin for a woman to ever wear slacks. Just not found in Scripture. What is found is that women should look like women, they should be covered (neck to knees), and they should be modest (garments loose and flowing). That is Scripture. If an individual feels convicted to wear only skirts as an application of these principles, then that is great. However, for me to say that pants are a sin would be wrong.

My husband says the same thing....he says if the Bible says it, people should not get offended, but that if he ever says something contrary to the Bible that he wants to be corrected.

Thought I would mention that your description of Biblical modest apparal sounds strangely like a dress. :ha

[HappyChristian]

Thought I would mention that your description of Biblical modest apparal sounds strangely like a dress. :ha

:lol:

[Pastorj]

Kitagrl, If you feel convicted of it, then you should wear only dresses.

I appreciate your stands and agree with you that many will stand before God and regret a lot of their choices.