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What is wrong with Christian Contemporary Music and Rock?

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I'm not getting into the discussion, but I just wanted to comment that I think it's sad that both of you boys had such poor churches to attend while growing up. The IFB churches I've been in (and I'll guarantee I've been in more than you two! :Green ) have all been in love with the Savior. The hymn singing has been wonderful (there have been some who haven't liked it, but that's a matter of course) and the preaching has been Biblical. I'm sorry you two missed out on that (no sarcasm intended, I really am sorry!!).

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I grew up attending a dull, dry Methodist church until I was about 10 or 11 when I stopped going.

I'm thankful to God that He was able to use some of what I learned there, but there was sure a great deal they failed to teach; most important being the way of salvation! I also never heard of the Rapture, End Times, Tribulation, or anything associated with that. Mostly, I got the idea of "be good, go to heaven; be bad, go to hell".

Believe me, I wasn't interested in stepping foot in church again.

I'm so thankful for biblical churches with pastors who preach the whole Word of God and members who love the Lord and their brothers and sisters in Christ!!!

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I just wanted to comment that I think it's sad that both of you boys had such poor churches to attend while growing up. The IFB churches I've been in (and I'll guarantee I've been in more than you two! ) have all been in love with the Savior. The hymn singing has been wonderful (there have been some who haven't liked it, but that's a matter of course) and the preaching has been Biblical. I'm sorry you two missed out on that (no sarcasm intended, I really am sorry!!).


Sometimes impressions arise from the heart of the individual. I have always found it amusing in a sad sort of way how two people can sit in the same service and one will say what a glorious time they had and how the Lord spoke to them and the other will say how dull, powerless, and hypocritical the service was. Obviously both can't be true. Now I don't know the church kevin grew up in and there is certainly a chance he is right, however, I do know kevin from this forum at least.... I am reasonably certain he wouldn't much care for my church and would likely describe it as he described the church he grew up in. I am equally assured I wouldn't much like where he is currently attending. Possibly I am mistaken here, but I really don't think so. :2cents

BTW Even though this post might look a little like it I am not trying to start a fight with you kevin. However, I do pray a fair bit for you and I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say that I think you will have some serious spiritual troubles farther down the road unless God in his mercy grants you a change of course...

Grace and peace....

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I can see where Kevin is coming from. I don't think that Kevin is by any means stating that you cannot have a good worship service using hymns. I think what he's saying is that the services he's attended that did use the traditional hymns were all about principle rather than passion.

I'm not the type of person that jumps up and down, claps my hands, and yells. I'm very laid back. However, I have noticed that; for the most part, the services I've attended that use only hymns are full of people who look straight ahead, sing the words without any show of emotion, and then continue through Church as if it's a pre-scripted day. Anything out of the ordinary becomes a nuisance.

The contemporary services I've attended however, are full of people raising their hands in worship. I've also noticed that you're more likely to me greeted at a contemporary service.

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I always appreciate when people pray for me Seth, so I won't turn them down. :wink
However, I feel much more spiritually fulfilled now and being here and a lot of old stereotypes that I had about people from the environment I grew up in are coming crumbling down. I'm realizing that Christians of various beliefs and Biblical understandings can have the same and more passion and love for Christ than those that may seem to have it all together, so to speak. I'm discovering true Christianity and I think it will bring me closer to Christ, not cause me spiritual troubles in the future. I actually have encouragement from Christians on a regular basis and I've really been challenged to deepen my prayer life in recent weeks. It's been so wonderful being here. :thumb

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I can see where Kevin is coming from. I don't think that Kevin is by any means stating that you cannot have a good worship service using hymns. I think what he's saying is that the services he's attended that did use the traditional hymns were all about principle rather than passion.

I'm not the type of person that jumps up and down, claps my hands, and yells. I'm very laid back. However, I have noticed that; for the most part, the services I've attended that use only hymns are full of people who look straight ahead, sing the words without any show of emotion, and then continue through Church as if it's a pre-scripted day. Anything out of the ordinary becomes a nuisance.

The contemporary services I've attended however, are full of people raising their hands in worship. I've also noticed that you're more likely to me greeted at a contemporary service.

I would certainly agree with you here, Kenny. My experiences have been similar.

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I personally won't listen to CCM because it's not proper Christian music.

But sometimes I do listen to secular music, pop and dance, but I try to not listen that often. What about you? Do you listen to music other than Christian? I just want to know if I'm wrong by listening to secular songs; of course, I'll never listen to rock because of its associations.

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Pop and dance are just different forms of Rock music. If Christian rock is wrong (which I firmly believe with all my heart), certainly secular rock is.

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I always appreciate when people pray for me Seth, so I won't turn them down. :wink
However, I feel much more spiritually fulfilled now and being here and a lot of old stereotypes that I had about people from the environment I grew up in are coming crumbling down. I'm realizing that Christians of various beliefs and Biblical understandings can have the same and more passion and love for Christ than those that may seem to have it all together, so to speak. I'm discovering true Christianity and I think it will bring me closer to Christ, not cause me spiritual troubles in the future. I actually have encouragement from Christians on a regular basis and I've really been challenged to deepen my prayer life in recent weeks. It's been so wonderful being here. :thumb


I could have written every single one of those words myself. I know exactly what you mean.

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I personally won't listen to CCM because it's not proper Christian music.

But sometimes I do listen to secular music, pop and dance, but I try to not listen that often. What about you? Do you listen to music other than Christian? I just want to know if I'm wrong by listening to secular songs; of course, I'll never listen to rock because of its associations.


What in the world is "proper" Christian music? :frog

Anyway, secular pop and dance music isn't always necessarily bad, but it takes discernment based on the lyrics. But generally, it is. Back when I listened to secular music, I thought that a lot of songs didn't have bad lyrics. But now that I only listen to CCM and CR, I look back on the "not bad" secular stuff I used to listen to and realize just how terrible some of the messages, themes, and ideas presented in those songs really were, even though they weren't blatantly bad. It was subtle.

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Hi BaptistGirl.
God bless you!
Well, if you are genuine in looking for some truth on the issue I can suggest you could start at the ' way of life ' website, by David Cloud.
Look up christian rock music.
But, can I suggest a couple of things to help you on your way, from an old ex-rock fan like myself?
First, when addressing this issue if you notice that you have some elevated body temperatures, raised heart beat, flushed face, and those old, oh so familiar, agro feelings rising, take some time out for prayer because this is a hard one!
If you are honest with yourself in front of the Lord, and you really do want to know the answer about music, then you are going to have be courageous.
You may have to face some things about music that will really hurt. If you are not ready for the truth, then the 'way of life' website and others like it will just sting.
Can you believe that something that you have loved, and enjoyed, and made you feel better at times of need, could actually be something that dis-honours God, blasphemes Him, and lies to Christians to keep them away from time in genuine worship?
Well, the devil is a liar, and a destroyer, and a thief.
If you are going to tempt someone you are going to use something that is very appealing to the flesh. So it is with rock music.
What has darkness to do with light?
Rock music, wether it be called christian or not, is a complete anti-thesis to true worship music that honours God.
Christ doesn't rock!
Christ is the rock!
I have won this argument with the devil. I was a rock pig, on a rock pizza! I was playing in heavy rock bands for most of my life. Drummer.
Christ has set me free.

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Hi BaptistGirl.
God bless you!
Well, if you are genuine in looking for some truth on the issue I can suggest you could start at the ' way of life ' website, by David Cloud.
Look up christian rock music.
But, can I suggest a couple of things to help you on your way, from an old ex-rock fan like myself?
First, when addressing this issue if you notice that you have some elevated body temperatures, raised heart beat, flushed face, and those old, oh so familiar, agro feelings rising, take some time out for prayer because this is a hard one!
If you are honest with yourself in front of the Lord, and you really do want to know the answer about music, then you are going to have be courageous.
You may have to face some things about music that will really hurt. If you are not ready for the truth, then the 'way of life' website and others like it will just sting.
Can you believe that something that you have loved, and enjoyed, and made you feel better at times of need, could actually be something that dis-honours God, blasphemes Him, and lies to Christians to keep them away from time in genuine worship?
Well, the devil is a liar, and a destroyer, and a thief.
If you are going to tempt someone you are going to use something that is very appealing to the flesh. So it is with rock music.
What has darkness to do with light?
Rock music, wether it be called christian or not, is a complete anti-thesis to true worship music that honours God.
Christ doesn't rock!
Christ is the rock!
I have won this argument with the devil. I was a rock pig, on a rock pizza! I was playing in heavy rock bands for most of my life. Drummer.
Christ has set me free.


There's a big difference between a rock band like Metallica that is all about glorifying the flesh, and a Christian rock band like Skillet, that is all about either worshipping God or relaying a Christian message. God is powerful enough to take what the enemy meant to use for evil and use it for good--and he does that through Christian rock groups like Skillet. They are not blaspheming God. They are reaching out to a generation that the church has been content to let drown in spiritual death because the church was too obsessed with how it wanted to do things and how it thought things should be done. I thank God for people like this who are willing to face the fire of the church to do what the church won't. I know kids who have gone to church all of their lives, sat in the pews, sang the hymns, and listened to the sermons, but didn't get saved until someone was real with them, until someone was raw with them (and yes, many people have been saved at Skillet concerts).

You see, my generation is being destroyed by several things: Drugs, alcohol, sex, pornography, abortion, and above all, religion. My generation isn't going to be reached by suits and ties. My generation isn't going to be reached by great speakers. My generation isn't going to be reached by hymns. My generation isn't going to be reached by well prepared speeches. My generation is going to be reached by something raw, something honest, and something that says, "I'm willing to go out of my way for you, and I'm willing to be looked down upon, spat on, and hated by the religious for the way I do it, because Jesus did that, and I want to share that love with you."

We look at the story in 2 Kings 6:26-29 and see how the woman boiled and ate her son, and we say "We would never boil our babies!" --And yet we have been doing it for decades, because we refuse to let go of our manmade traditions, and our ideas of what Christianity should look like, to reach out to a generation of kids that are starving for a reason to live and dying to find it, but instead they have been given cold religion that they will never respond to that doesn't teach them that they can be in love with Jesus, that doesn't teach them that He is all they need, and that has never given them a chance to see the real Jesus.

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So we should just give the lost what they know to reach them? How about a Bible with scantily clad pictures of half-naked women on the cover? How about a beer and pretzels Bible study night? God wants believers to be separated from evil - not imitate it "to reach the lost." What a ridiculous excuse! There have been many studies shown that these rock or country groups in CCM that are compromising on their standards and lyrics - lowering the bar - to reach the lost are fooling themselves because it is professing Christians (not the lost) that are buying their albums.

There's a big difference between a rock band like Metallica that is all about glorifying the flesh, and a Christian rock band like Skillet, that is all about either worshipping God or relaying a Christian message.


Is there? When they sound the same and look the same, your philosophy goes out the window. When they have mosh pits in Christian concerts - they are not different. When they water down their lyrics "to reach the lost", they are not glorifying God OR even reaching the lost. Can't win the souls of the lost without the Word of God. When the lost come to a supposed "Christian" concert, hear the music they are used to with vague feel-good lyrics, see the male singers with long hair and grunge clothing, and see the female singers with butch hair and skimpy clothing - all the while sporting tattoos - I don't believe you are having an impact on the lost. All I see is a justification for Christians to stay worldly.

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There's a big difference between a rock band like Metallica that is all about glorifying the flesh, and a Christian rock band like Skillet, that is all about either worshipping God or relaying a Christian message. God is powerful enough to take what the enemy meant to use for evil and use it for good--and he does that through Christian rock groups like Skillet. They are not blaspheming God. They are reaching out to a generation that the church has been content to let drown in spiritual death because the church was too obsessed with how it wanted to do things and how it thought things should be done. I thank God for people like this who are willing to face the fire of the church to do what the church won't. I know kids who have gone to church all of their lives, sat in the pews, sang the hymns, and listened to the sermons, but didn't get saved until someone was real with them, until someone was raw with them (and yes, many people have been saved at Skillet concerts).

You see, my generation is being destroyed by several things: Drugs, alcohol, sex, pornography, abortion, and above all, religion. My generation isn't going to be reached by suits and ties. My generation isn't going to be reached by great speakers. My generation isn't going to be reached by hymns. My generation isn't going to be reached by well prepared speeches. My generation is going to be reached by something raw, something honest, and something that says, "I'm willing to go out of my way for you, and I'm willing to be looked down upon, spat on, and hated by the religious for the way I do it, because Jesus did that, and I want to share that love with you."

We look at the story in 2 Kings 6:26-29 and see how the woman boiled and ate her son, and we say "We would never boil our babies!" --And yet we have been doing it for decades, because we refuse to let go of our manmade traditions, and our ideas of what Christianity should look like, to reach out to a generation of kids that are starving for a reason to live and dying to find it, but instead they have been given cold religion that they will never respond to that doesn't teach them that they can be in love with Jesus, that doesn't teach them that He is all they need, and that has never given them a chance to see the real Jesus.



Amen Jerry!!

In my past I heard the same bogus argument (in a Nazarene church) that using the newer "music" (if you will) will reach the present generation(s). It is not just the lyrics that are off...it is the rock-like atmosphere. To me, IMHO, using this "newer" music is no different than a church that has many "wordly" programs just to draw people into the church. How can one truly say that they are "reaching" the unsaved if they are watering down God's Word? That is promoting a false (or at least a watered-down) gospel.

The Bible does not change, rather people need to change to align themselves to God's Word.

As my pastor says, we may be accused of being narrow-minded...I don't mind being narrow-minded (as he holds up the AKJV Bible)!!

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How about a Bible with scantily clad pictures of half-naked women on the cover?


Funny you should mention that Jerry, but I actually saw that in the "religion" section of todays paper.... They called it "eves bible for women" There is no area where the line should drawn in some peoples minds...

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While I feel that "some" CCM does, actually, glorify Jesus Christ...I will tell you that "most" of it is waaay out of line. For instance, the singer...Jaci Velasquez is now sportin' a nose ring? If you look at some of the CCM or RM singers they have their bodies covered with tatoos? :puzzled: As I recall, the Book of Leviticus talks all about this issue. Now, aren't Christians to be separate from the world? How are the lost going to "fully" follow Jesus Christ...if these singer/songwriters are looking like the lost world? :eek If they are Christians...serving a merciful Saviour...then, I would clean up this type of music, and the body...ASAP! This is a shame to Christianity...and, most importantly, to Our Heavenly Father!

candlelight

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[quote="candlelight"]While I feel that "some" CCM does, actually, glorify Jesus Christ...I will tell you that "most" of it is waaay out of line. For instance, the singer...Jaci Velasquez is now sportin' a nose ring? If you look at some of the CCM or RM singers they have their bodies covered with tatoos? :puzzled: As I recall, the Book of Leviticus talks all about this issue. [u]Now, aren't Christians to be separate from the world? How are the lost going to "fully" follow Jesus Christ...if these singer/songwriters are looking like the lost world?[/u] :eek If they are Christians...serving a merciful Saviour...then, I would clean up this type of music, and the body...ASAP! This is a shame to Christianity...and, most importantly, to Our Heavenly Father!

candlelight[/quote]

Candlelight, allow me to play the devil's advocate for a minute and point out that Leviticus is not really relevant in this application. If it is, then this sampling of other Levitical laws and ordinances should also be followed:

[i]Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9) Of course, anyone else's daughter is fine. :p

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)
[/i]
That being said, I also agree with you on the tattoos and nose rings, etc.. I would, however, stick with the argument that you used and I underlined above. ;) That makes a whole lot more balanced sense than trying to pick and choose which parts of Hebraic law we should enforce and which part is unimportant. Having to pick and choose which parts of Scripture are to be enforced, could just as quickly confuse a young Christian as a Christian "leader" having a nose ring or tattoos.

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Candlelight, allow me to play the devil's advocate for a minute and point out that Leviticus is not really relevant in this application. If it is, then this sampling of other Levitical laws and ordinances should also be followed:

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9) Of course, anyone else's daughter is fine. :P

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)


You seem to be missing the point Vir decimus. Most of those verses you mention are pictures of what was to come. A sermon could be preached on any one of them. The only exception to that would be the ones about stoning people and they were also at least partially pictures as well as judgement. And BTW "anyone else's daughter" would not be "fine" if they were a whore. The daughters of laymen were to be stoned on their fathers doorstep, as a reproach to him for not keeping his daughter under control.

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Unless the NT states some specific aspect of the OT law is done away with, then it still applies - whether directly or by principle. Yes, some things are pictures - and it takes studying to find out exactly what and how it pictures. What is the principle regarding forbidding tattooing and piercings? Not to be like the world/pagans around us. Still applies directly today - and that would directly include not getting tattoos or piercings like the world. So as a principle or a direct command, it still applices to us.

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Unless the NT states some specific aspect of the OT law is done away with' date=' then it still applies - whether directly or by principle. Yes, some things are pictures - and it takes studying to find out exactly what and how it pictures. What is the principle regarding forbidding tattooing and piercings? Not to be like the world/pagans around us. Still applies directly today - and that would directly include not getting tattoos or piercings like the world. So as a principle or a direct command, it still applices to us.[/quote']

well said

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Unless the NT states some specific aspect of the OT law is done away with' date=' then it still applies - whether directly or by principle. Yes, some things are pictures - and it takes studying to find out exactly what and how it pictures. What is the principle regarding forbidding tattooing and piercings? Not to be like the world/pagans around us. Still applies directly today - and that would directly include not getting tattoos or piercings like the world. So as a principle or a direct command, it still applices to us.[/quote']

Yes, I agree most with this post, Jerry. In fact, this is probably about the most we've ever agreed on anything. That is ... slightly scary, no? :frog



Yeah, I knew that - my sarcasm is not translated very well in writing. It was a failed attempt at humor...

While most of what I said did have pictures of what was to come or a following judgment, the fact remains that they were still laws. Granted, most of them were there for sanitary reasons and cleanliness. You and I both know that we could comb the book of Leviticus and could come up with several, if not dozens, of cultural rules or laws that are completely inapplicable in today's church. Now, as Jerry had stated, the principle may still apply, but drawing a direct line because of the wording in Leviticus may not be the best interpretation of that principle.

For an example of interpreting principles, let's look at clothing. I wonder, what with all the many passages on what the priests were to wear, what did the other peoples (not of Israel) wear? Were the styles the same, or was there some notable difference? Obviously, there was a difference between what the priests and the and the other children of Israel wore. To me, this principle is the one that best carries over to today's society. We are saved and we believe in the "priesthood of the believer", therefore we are held to a higher standard - just like the priests in the OT times. I do, however, think it would be ridiculous to have the exact same attire (a direct line rule) that the priests were required to wear, just because it is worded that way in the Old Testament. Did any of that make sense? (did I just hi-jack a thread?) The real issue is taking a Biblical principle (OT or NT) and applying it to the modern church with consideration to its surrounding culture: to allow the principle to change lines without compromising truth. I think this is commonly referred to as cultural relevance, and because of its abuse, it has been deemed a bad thing. It was, however, the basis for the human aspect of Jesus' earthly ministry.

There. Now you can take the same thought process and apply it to music, before we totally derail this thread. :smile

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So we should just give the lost what they know to reach them?


Nope. You give them what they don't know in a way that they will actually receive.

How about a Bible with scantily clad pictures of half-naked women on the cover?


No, that would be perverse.


How about a beer and pretzels Bible study night?


Nope, drinking alcohol is wrong. Pretzels are okay.

God wants believers to be separated from evil - not imitate it "to reach the lost."


What you fail to realize is that being separated from the world is all about the condition of the heart, the state of mind, the intent, the purpose, the holiness, and the love for Jesus Christ, and nothing to do with outward appearances. Music is only a vehicle. Saying that music of a particular sound is always wrong because there's a lot of songs that have horrible words attached to the sound is like saying it's wrong to wear all t-shirts (including the ones with John 3:16 on them) because there are some t-shirts with lude imagery and foul language.

What a ridiculous excuse! There have been many studies shown that these rock or country groups in CCM that are compromising on their standards and lyrics - lowering the bar - to reach the lost are fooling themselves because it is professing Christians (not the lost) that are buying their albums.


If anyone does that, that's wrong. But don't paint a broad stroke. I know people who got saved listening to a Casting Crowns song, and I know of people that got saved at a Skillet concert, and I can name people right now that have just now come to the point of making a commitment to God because for the past few months they've been listening to CCM and CR, and through that, God has slowly been working on their hearts.


Is there? When they sound the same and look the same, your philosophy goes out the window.


And that right there is the problem with the church today. We're so concerned with making sure everyone looks right in the sight of men, that we've totally lost the concept of being right. We've almost said to an entire generation in the church, "We don't care if you are right. We just want to make sure you look right." And what's looking right to us? Well, let's just say Jesus and John the Baptist wouldn't be allowed in a lot of churches today because they wouldn't look right.

God's looking for hearts, not three-piece suits, dresses, a 50's combover, and the ability to play the same songs on the piano and sing the same songs that our great grandparents played and sang. The hymns we sing today weren't always accepted either, you know.

God is not pleased by men's traditions and ideas and man's own wisdom in regards to what is "right".

When they have mosh pits in Christian concerts - they are not different.


Which is why some friends and I left a "Christian" concert shouting "ICHABOD!" at the top of our lungs back in November. At the same time, I question the wisdom of that now--I wonder if some of those people in that mosh pit went there for totally the wrong reasons (just wanting to "rock out") but may pick up the CD and be influenced by the lyrics later on? I mean, I wanted the lost and the unsaved to be there. Okay, they were. Then I got upset because they weren't automatically transformed, and still acted like they were lost and unsaved. What can you expect from sinners? Sin. So I'm questioning the wisdom of my reaction to that. If it had been professing Christians doing it, on the other hand...that's a different story.

But that's the only Christian concert I've ever experienced a "mosh" pit at. The [numerous] others ones I've been to had hands lifted all over the building, people crying, people getting saved, and people singing in worship to God. You cannot paint a broad stroke against CCM/CR just because there's some black sheep, just like you can't paint all preachers as bad just because there's some black sheep.

When they water down their lyrics "to reach the lost", they are not glorifying God OR even reaching the lost.


Not all of them do that. But for the ones that do, well? Sometimes that can be a good thing, depending on how it's done. You don't feed a baby meat. You start with milk, then you slowly work them up to meat.

Can't win the souls of the lost without the Word of God. When the lost come to a supposed "Christian" concert, hear the music they are used to with vague feel-good lyrics, see the male singers with long hair and grunge clothing, and see the female singers with butch hair and skimpy clothing - all the while sporting tattoos - I don't believe you are having an impact on the lost. All I see is a justification for Christians to stay worldly.


Skimpy clothing is totally wrong. I've never been to a Christian concert where any of the females sported skimpy or sexual clothing--they have always been very modest. I have no problem with the rest of it (except tattoos, which are debatable), because against, being not of this world is not about outward appearance (as long as it is not sinful).

Worldliness is a mindset, a lifestyle, and a condition of the heart. To be not of this world is a glorious way of living that leads a man to lay down his life for Christ (even if his hair is shoulder length, and even if he is wearing somewhat ragged jeans and a t-shirt--trust me, John the Baptist was way worse off), that leads a girl like Rachel Joy Scott of Columbine--who often wore jeans and not skirts based on her pictures--to die for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ. To be not of this world is to be in love with Jesus Christ and to live for Him, and not about being able to dress like a good church goer.

It just saddens me that so many of us have taken this attitude to people who have devoted their lives to the cause of Christ, because they dress more like I'd expect John the Baptist to than they do like I'd expect the religious people of Jesus' time to have dressed. The church still makes the same mistake the Pharisees and Saducees made in that we still put more of an emphasis on outward appearances than we do on the heart--except now we call ourselves Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, and so on and so forth.

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I have not been able to get on-line in a few days...but, Jerry...thank you for saying this. The world/pagans is a very accurate assessment here! :thumb Also, thank you to the post below Vir's post. too! :wave:

VIr...I look at this as an abomination against God! And, children see this as well. Ask your "average" youngster or teenager (saved or unsaved) and, they will certainly tell you that something just isn't right about the look of a "nose-piercing" by a Christian who has been following Christ for many years? I don't get it?...And, I wasn't raised in a Christian home. I was, however, raised in a RCC home with good, moral values, though. My parents were/are against this type of look...especially, from a Christian. The biggest problem I have with RM and CCM...is that "it is smoke under the door". Just a little dabble into something will allow the enemy to get "full-control", eventually. If you let in "creep in it will". And, Christians start getting tattoos as well? IMO, this does NOT glorify the Lord Jesus Christ...at all. :sad There are 2 reasons that a person comes to know JC as their "personal Saviour"...either, they know a Christian or they don't.

candlelight

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How about a Bible with scantily clad pictures of half-naked women on the cover?

No, that would be perverse.

What you fail to realize is that being separated from the world is all about the condition of the heart, the state of mind, the intent, the purpose, the holiness, and the love for Jesus Christ, and nothing to do with outward appearances.


You just contradicted yourself. First you say something would be wrong, then you say God doesn't care about that. This passage is not saying God is not concerned with outward appearances - as that actually would contradict various passages in the Bible itself (such as those dealing with attire, hair lenghts, tattooes and piercings, etc.):

1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

What it says is that God's criteria for using people is not dependant upon their physical status, looks, height, etc. Big difference there.

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You just contradicted yourself. First you say something would be wrong, then you say God doesn't care about that. This passage is not saying God is not concerned with outward appearances - as that actually would contradict various passages in the Bible itself (such as those dealing with attire, hair lenghts, tattooes and piercings, etc.):

1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

What it says is that God's criteria for using people is not dependant upon their physical status, looks, height, etc. Big difference there.


Obviously, if it's sinful, it's wrong. When I say "God doesn't care about outward appearances", I mean that God doesn't care about whether or not we adhere to religious people's idea of appropriate outward appearances.

There's a big difference between a girl who is wearing a mini skirt that is barely there and a girl wearing a pair of (non-tight) jeans. The mini skirt is wrong because it promotes sexual immorality and goes against the commandments of God. The jeans are wrong because religious people say they are wrong.

As far as hair length goes, I'm not going to get into an argument over that, but that scripture has been grossly misconstrued and I don't think we realize that there is a huge difference between our modern idea of what constitutes "long hair" on a man and the 1st century idea of that. It's really not something worth arguing over. It's just another thing we use to avoid having to actually deal with the true plumbline--the heart.

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