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What is wrong with Christian Contemporary Music and Rock?

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Vir/candlelight,

Good luck. Jerry does not get this one at all. The fact is culture is pivotal important in the spiritual lives of 1st century believers as well as 21st century. Jerry in the past has not been able to recognize that. Culture should effect much of what we do, especially scriptural interpretation. A hermeneutic that does not cross the cultural divide is wrong, and is the main crux of why so many IFBs get it wrong. All of this is IMO of course. I suppose when we get to heaven, God might speak to us in Elizabethan English and tell us that if only Africans were to sing amazing grace out of the hymnal they would have been saved. I doubt it though

(I apologize in advance for the flaimbait, but my exaggerations are meant to make a point. Culture does influence what things are acceptable, and the music issue is built on some REALLY weak biblical principals. Jerry's point is that if those principles were there, then culture would not matter, and that is true. But they aren't, so it does. )

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Culture does influence what things are acceptable' date=' and the music issue is built on some REALLY weak biblical principals.[/quote']

If you could only show from the Bible that culture influences what is acceptable to God, then we might be able to agree there.

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In the United Stated, in the 18th and 19th centuries, drums were forbidden (ie. against the law) in black congregations in every state except for New Orleans. Those slaves coming out of Africa that got saved wanted nothing to do with drums in their worship of the true God - as they could see two hundred years ago what was wrong with them, as they came out of that. But today Christendom does whatever it wants and justifies it at the same time. Its okay as long as its "Christian" - it doesn't matter what it is, I can put a Christian label on it. How can you say my Christian rock and roll/country is wrong - it is "Christian" after all!!


In the United States in the 18th and 19th centuries, the people in those black congregations would not have any say in making anything illegal. They were slaves and their "owners" were the ones who made the laws. Rock music traces its roots from slave work songs and Negro spirituals, to Jazz and Blues and then to Rock and roll, which in many of its earliest forms was nothing more then African-American songs song by white artists. At that time white America would not buy music by African-American artists. Historically much of the opposition to rock and roll were based on racism.

dwayner79 wrote:
Culture does influence what things are acceptable, and the music issue is built on some REALLY weak biblical principals.

If you could only show from the Bible that culture influences what is acceptable to God, then we might be able to agree there.


Jerry your entire argument is based on culture. The Bible says nothing about musical styles or beats.

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Jerry...Please show me in the KJV where these songs are? "Grace Greater than our sin"..."How Great Thou Art"..."My Jesus I Love Thee"..."Go Tell It on the Mountain"...to name a few Christian songs we love to sing. This culture, as Vir mentioned, comes directly from Caucasian European influence. Who am I to judge how the Africans (on the continent of Africa) worship and praise Jesus Christ as long as it glorifies the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords? There is a distinct cultural difference in the various continents.

candlelight

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Here is an article that goes into more detail then I could given the time I have. From the basic skim I did of it, it hits the highlights I would bring up. Jews vs Gentiles in the NT, etc.

We are limited in the use of cultural differences within a timeperiod to only a few examples, but they are there. Time factors heavily into culture, and we cannot account for that in any given writing (though we can infer some things from OT to NT).

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There were many free blacks at that time, especially in the 19th century. They had their own churches and made their own rules for their churches. Even among the slaves they tended to have their own churches and determined their own rules of worship.

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The Historian...David Barton is a good man to watch on TV. I believe his show is called "The American Experience". He goes through the history of the US and covers Christianity in it's entirety. African Americans pulled away from the mainstream for obvious reasons...their mis-treatment in America. Music played a huge role in this. David Barton explains how Christianity among AA's would have changed America to this day in our fundamental churches. BTW, he is a white man...I am a white woman. And, ITA...with his discoveries. Oh...how corrupt a nation we really are...Lord, help us. :pray

candlelight

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My question is...then? What do we say to our fellow IFB brothers and sisters in Christ in Africa who worship with drums and dance? Don't ya think it is a cultural thing? Just asking.


Many IFB's in Africa will not use drums. For those that do, consider that even some who call themselves IFB's use drums in America as well. Also consider that the charismatic movement is VERY strong in Africa.

Drums feature VERY prevalently in demon worship within Africa, witch doctors use them all the time to call demons, to supposedly drive away demons, to talk to demons, to cast spells, etc. The witch doctors consider their drums essential part of their practicing of witchcraft. That is not the only thing they use drums for in Africa, but it is certainly one of the most common if not the most common use. The drum has a great deal of spiritual significance over there, and all of it bad. If anything culturally it is more important for Africans to avoid drums than it is for us in America. That is no way to imply they must use the same instruments we use in America, there are many local instruments which are perfectly fine, but the drum is not one of them...

BTW You can see the connection between drums and demon worship in every culture that uses them, north american indian, african, south american indian, aboriginal, southeast asian, and more...

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Many IFB's in Africa will not use drums. For those that do, consider that even some who call themselves IFB's use drums in America as well. Also consider that the charismatic movement is VERY strong in Africa.

Drums feature VERY prevalently in demon worship within Africa, witch doctors use them all the time to call demons, to supposedly drive away demons, to talk to demons, to cast spells, etc. The witch doctors consider their drums essential part of their practicing of witchcraft. That is not the only thing they use drums for in Africa, but it is certainly one of the most common if not the most common use. The drum has a great deal of spiritual significance over there, and all of it bad. If anything culturally it is more important for Africans to avoid drums than it is for us in America. That is no way to imply they must use the same instruments we use in America, there are many local instruments which are perfectly fine, but the drum is not one of them...

BTW You can see the connection between drums and demon worship in every culture that uses them, north american indian, african, south american indian, aboriginal, southeast asian, and more...


Thanks, Seth! :smile I have heard of the use of drums as pertaining to Demon worship. I just didn't know if our fellow IFB's in Africa used them or not. This makes sense. Thanks again for the explanation. God bless you! :thumb

candlelight

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There were many free blacks at that time, especially in the 19th century. They had their own churches and made their own rules for their churches. Even among the slaves they tended to have their own churches and determined their own rules of worship.


But Jerry said that it was against the law and those free blacks would not have been able to change the law one way or another. My point was that it was not the blacks who made it illegal, regarless of the reason. The people who were making the laws were not conserned with what was best for the blacks, but with keeping them under control.

Drums feature VERY prevalently in demon worship within Africa, witch doctors use them all the time to call demons, to supposedly drive away demons, to talk to demons, to cast spells, etc. The witch doctors consider their drums essential part of their practicing of witchcraft. That is not the only thing they use drums for in Africa, but it is certainly one of the most common if not the most common use. The drum has a great deal of spiritual significance over there, and all of it bad. If anything culturally it is more important for Africans to avoid drums than it is for us in America. That is no way to imply they must use the same instruments we use in America, there are many local instruments which are perfectly fine, but the drum is not one of them...

BTW You can see the connection between drums and demon worship in every culture that uses them, north american indian, african, south american indian, aboriginal, southeast asian, and more...


Drums and other percussion instruments have been used in every culture for a number of different reasons. Psalm 150 talks about using percussion instruments to praise God with. Yes, drums are used to worship demons, but so are languages, so should we say that those languages are wrong too? And with the issue of Christian rock we still come to the issue that if you say that it is wrong you are claiming that the beat or drums (things that the Bible never even hints are wrong) are more powerful then the message of God and that Satan can oppose himself (which Jesus said he could not do).

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Psalms 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Timbrels are tambourines. Yes, they are a percussion instrument, but there is a world of difference between drums (like rock bands use) and bongo drums and tambourines.

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I got on this thread late and have not read all of it. But let me use a little of my personal testimony to answer this question. The Lord saved me from a life of drunkeness and filth. When music has a beat that would have been accepted in the bars and honkey tonks that I use to frequent, it can not honor God. I have heard much of what is called "
christian Rock" and CCM. It has a sound that I immediately associate with my past. Nothing about my past glorified Christ. So, the music of it even with Christian words attached can not glorify Him.

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I got on this thread late and have not read all of it. But let me use a little of my personal testimony to answer this question. The Lord saved me from a life of drunkeness and filth. When music has a beat that would have been accepted in the bars and honkey tonks that I use to frequent, it can not honor God. I have heard much of what is called "
christian Rock" and CCM. It has a sound that I immediately associate with my past. Nothing about my past glorified Christ. So, the music of it even with Christian words attached can not glorify Him.


Not to say this is not true for your life, but I do hope you see the self-centered view of this. Not everyone associates this with bars and honkey-tonks. We cannot base our convictions on just personal experience. It has to be on scripture. We can have personal convictions, but we cannot force those on others.

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Psalms 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Timbrels are tambourines. Yes, they are a percussion instrument, but there is a world of difference between drums (like rock bands use) and bongo drums and tambourines.


Drums....And this is a big issue for me. How can you take rhythms that people use in occult practices and try and worship God with them? Adding "Christian" sounding words do not nullify what the purpose of the rhythm was originally used for.......you are just mixing two things that cannot be combined. (light with darkness) It is like a rebellious teenager who speaks obedience with their mouth, but demostrates defiance with their body language and actions. Which one does a parent believe--the actions or the words? Which one does God believe? Especially if a Christian teenager is singing a Christian rock song and moving their body just like the kids do to the secular music?? Don't think "Christian" people do that? Check it out: http://www.dancepraise.com/product.php?PID=9&NV=4 Second version of a popular video game with a dance pad that teaches you all the steps to dance. It even brags the only differece between it is that you dance to ZoEgirl instead of U2.

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I've just kinda been skimming this thread lately - but I just wanted to say that not all drums are bad! We have an orchestra at church which uses drums. They don't dominate the music, but they do add to it.

I agree that there are sounds that are best avoided with drums - but drums don't have to be avoided just because they are drums.

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I've just kinda been skimming this thread lately - but I just wanted to say that not all drums are bad! We have an orchestra at church which uses drums. They don't dominate the music, but they do add to it.

I agree that there are sounds that are best avoided with drums - but drums don't have to be avoided just because they are drums.


:uuhm: What church do you go to? :lol: Just kidding..........I know what you mean, and I hope you knew I wasn't saying the drum itself was bad, just certain rythms that can be played on it.........

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:uuhm: What church do you go to? :lol: Just kidding..........I know what you mean, and I hope you knew I wasn't saying the drum itself was bad, just certain rythms that can be played on it.........

:Green

I didn't figure that's what you meant...just wanted to clarify for others who might think otherwise.

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And with the issue of Christian rock we still come to the issue that if you say that it is wrong you are claiming that the beat or drums (things that the Bible never even hints are wrong) are more powerful then the message of God and that Satan can oppose himself (which Jesus said he could not do).



Your analogy is flawed. Satan has always tried to take that which is good(Godly music in this case) and corrupt it. Here are a few passages to consider.

"Haggai 2:11-14 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying, If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No. Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean. Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith the LORD; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean. "

This passage is teaching that if you add something good to something bad it doesn't make that thing which was bad good. Also if you take something bad and add it to something good it makes that which was good bad.

"Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

This verse is teaching about how corruption works within the church. When leaven,(a picture of sin) is brought in, at first things look normal, then a little different, and before long the whole "loaf" is totally changed from what it once was.


"1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?"

This is a reference to the verse quoted above.

"Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod."

Jesus here is warning the disciples of the leaven of the Pharisees and of Herod. What was the leaven of the Pharisees? Hypocrisy, adding many man made laws while at the same time ignoring and trying to get around many of Gods laws. What was the leaven of Herod? Compromise. Attempting to reconcile worldly pleasures, attitudes, and sins with the teachings of God. Trying to serve two masters. One the one hand:

"Mark 6:20 For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly."

As we see, he did what John said in many cases, but when his pet issue was brought up he ignored him, imprisoned him, and later beheaded him for the sake of his own adulterous relationship. That is just one biblical example of the compromising leaven of Herod. Others can be found when studying Herod in the records of history.

You can see this blending of the teachings of God and the carnality of the world, the leaven of Herod, when you look at either the bible or history. Then, as today, both the leaven of Herod and the leaven of the pharisees is of devil.

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I got on this thread late and have not read all of it. But let me use a little of my personal testimony to answer this question. The Lord saved me from a life of drunkeness and filth. When music has a beat that would have been accepted in the bars and honkey tonks that I use to frequent, it can not honor God. I have heard much of what is called "
christian Rock" and CCM. It has a sound that I immediately associate with my past. Nothing about my past glorified Christ. So, the music of it even with Christian words attached can not glorify Him.


This is very valid. :smile If you take a man like Elvis Presley (who was once a young boy attending a Christian church) ...he changed a whole nation with "Rock-N-Roll". Elvis...I had heard was not encouraged in his Christian church w/ his musical talent. His music...although, much before my time, has influenced the generations to come in a negative way. This music does not glorify God, and thus has affected the music industry in general.

I grew up on Rock-N-Roll...and, when it left my life...so did many other negative aspects of my life. Godly music has restored my soul, thus restoring my life. Un-Godly music led me to unwise choices and decisions. I DO believe it affects a person's life.... :2cents

candlelight

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Your analogy is flawed. Satan has always tried to take that which is good(Godly music in this case) and corrupt it. Here are a few passages to consider.


You are automatically assuming that God gave us a perfect, godly form of music for Satan to then corrupt. I have never seen a record of that, have you? You are basing your definition of "godly" on your own musical preferences. This is why this argument has gone on for years, and will continue to do so.

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You are automatically assuming that God gave us a perfect, godly form of music for Satan to then corrupt. I have never seen a record of that, have you? You are basing your definition of "godly" on your own musical preferences. This is why this argument has gone on for years, and will continue to do so.


Good afternoon... Vir! I have heard many people (not IFB's in particular) talk about all music coming from Gospel...soul type of music. I don't know how factual this is...but, it is something to research. BTW, I enjoy folk music b/c it reminds me of my childhood. Rock-N-Roll...as I stated, just brings me back to a dark place. "My roaring 20 years...and in my 30's...The Great Depression". Then, the Lord took me out of that...at age 39, and saved my soul. :amen: :pray Rock music was always a hindrance in my life. It was hard to break my old habit. Now...I don't listen to anything but good Godly Christian music, unless rock music is within an earshot by accident. Country music and Bluegrass bothers a lot of people, but it doesn't effect me at all. That is my testimony on music. May Jesus Bless you tremendously! :bible:

candlelight

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You are automatically assuming that God gave us a perfect, godly form of music for Satan to then corrupt.


Yes I am.

I have never seen a record of that, have you?


"Exodus 32:17-18 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp. And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear."

That "noise" of singing here means a song that sounds like yelling. Now what kind of singing sounds like war and yelling? Guess. I will give you a hint, it is not Godly music. :lol

You are basing your definition of "godly" on your own musical preferences. This is why this argument has gone on for years, and will continue to do so.


This "argument" goes on only because:

"Jeremiah 8:7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD."

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I will also add that the music in Heaven is not Rock-N-Roll, Rap, Heavy Metal...or anything that is deemed un-Godly. Heaven is filled with good, Godly music...one can only imagine how beautiful it really is. :clapping:

candellight

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And through some magical portal, you alone have the definitive sound of what is holy to God? The reason Moses knew that it was not the sound of holy music to God is because it was different than what they had sang before. Now, unless you either posses a time machine or highly psychic skills, there is no way that you would know what either of those different music types sounded like, would you? I usually ask rhetorical questions - it's the teacher in me. :wink

The reason the argument goes on is because people find how to please God in their niche of service and feel that must be the only way to serve God. No one who sincerely calls themselves a Christian would adamantly deny God His praise through music and ask for His wrath if they knew it to be so - to say that is absurd. I am not offering this as an excuse to allow the mimicking of obvious rock bands and worldly culture into the church (or the home for that matter), but as a unifying statement of diversity in worship. A good Baptist church down the road from me may only use a piano and an organ for their hymn singing. Mine may use pianos, keyboard, organ, trumpets, trombones, saxophones, drums (yes, even the kick set), full percussion (bongos, a timpani set, etc.), an organ, acoustic guitar, bass guitar, electric guitar, and many more instruments to sing the same hymns and maybe a few of the praise and worship songs in a reverent, Christ-honoring matter. Which one is more pleasing to God?

There is no justification for mimicking Satan and his culture. In the same manner, there is no justification for one Christian saying another is wrong because they don't do it the same way. I do, however, agree with your basic premise that there is good music and bad music. I only deny your claim that God gave you (or anyone else alive today) definitive guidelines as to what it was. He may very well have given it to the Israelites, but that was lost with much of their culture just as today's culture slowly changes. I have stated it before, but it is interesting that God never preserved any music to go with the Psalms and their beautiful lyrics. Perhaps this is because the lyrics were what God wanted, and even in the most conservative, traditional church today - the original psalmist's music itself would be irrelevant to modern culture. Did that make sense? I don't want a debate, I just want clarity through conversation.

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