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Being born again


Maxmya

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Adam was created in the image of God. When he sinned, he died in two ways. First, the Spirit of God left him, & he became spiritually dead. Second, the flesh God made him was created to last forever, but after he sinned, the death process began.

The rest of us were not so much created in God's image, but in Adam's fallen image. Adam was created eternal and died. We were born spiritually dead, like our father Adam, but can be reborn. When we are born again, we re-acquire what Adam had originally, the Spirit of God in us.

The physical part comes later.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

What must be remembered about being born again, is many, even cults, will claim to be born again. Some mormons I talked to recently claimed to be born again. Just a note that we must be sure to teach salvation the bible way. By grace through faith in Jesus Christ, it is belief in the death burial and resurection of Christ, recieving him as saviour, and repenting (turning from our sin and turning to Christ).

I am hearing more and more from "Christians" who say they are saved. When you ask them about their salvation, they will say. "I was baptized..." or "I prayed the sinners prayer". These should be warning bells. The water does not save, the prayer does not save. The belief, and receiving, of Christ and repentance is what saves. Nothing wrong with praying the sinners prayer, as long as belief is with it.

I have heard to many times people, especialy children told. "say this prayer and your saved". If they did not understand or believe, they are given a false sense of salvation. This has troubled me for years. It started when I saw and heard of preachers getting saved after preaching or years etc. They were saved as children (or thought so). My point is to make sure we are sharing Christ in truth of the word. Make sure people truly understand. Then, if there is 0 fruit ever, we should revisit salvation with them again. God knows the heart, but we must make sure we are sharing the gospel in truth.

Not meaning to hi-jack the thread, this has just been on my heart and this looked like a good place to share. :wave:
God Bless

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[quote="deputydog530"]What must be remembered about being born again, is many, even cults, will claim to be born again. Some mormons I talked to recently claimed to be born again. Just a note that we must be sure to teach salvation the bible way. By grace through faith in Jesus Christ, it is belief in the death burial and resurection of Christ, recieving him as saviour, and repenting (turning from our sin and turning to Christ).

I am hearing more and more from "Christians" who say they are saved. When you ask them about their salvation, they will say. "I was baptized..." or "I prayed the sinners prayer". These should be warning bells. The water does not save, the prayer does not save. The belief, and receiving, of Christ and repentance is what saves. Nothing wrong with praying the sinners prayer, as long as belief is with it.

I have heard to many times people, especialy children told. "say this prayer and your saved". If they did not understand or believe, they are given a false sense of salvation. This has troubled me for years. It started when I saw and heard of preachers getting saved after preaching or years etc. They were saved as children (or thought so). My point is to make sure we are sharing Christ in truth of the word. Make sure people truly understand. Then, if there is 0 fruit ever, we should revisit salvation with them again. God knows the heart, but we must make sure we are sharing the gospel in truth.

Not meaning to hi-jack the thread, this has just been on my heart and this looked like a good place to share. :wave:
God Bless[/quote]
:amen: :amen: :goodpost: :amen:

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
Adam was created in the image of God. When he sinned' date=' he died in two ways. First, the [b']Spirit of God left him, & he became spiritually dead. Second, the flesh God made him was created to last forever, but after he sinned, the death process began.

The rest of us were not so much created in God's image, but in Adam's fallen image. Adam was created eternal and died. We were born spiritually dead, like our father Adam, but can be reborn. When we are born again, we re-acquire what Adam had originally, the Spirit of God in us.


There is no Biblical basis for the statements you have made above. There are no Scriptures that teach Adam was indwelt with the Spirit of God - in fact, the NT teaches that is part of the new covenant provided through Christ's death.
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  • 3 months later...

Okay believing and received what ?


The entire bible or some of the bible only ?

Controversial bible issues let's you know the real person in people if we
talking about born again people.

Unbelievers believe in the cross for their atonement with sin.
Unbelievers love their neighbor as they love their self.
Unbelievers that are faithful to their spouse.
Unbelievers that are good parents and employees.
Unbelievers that don't cuss and run red lights.
Unbelievers that are great tycoons and celebrities.
Unbelievers that don't smoke, drink and do drugs.
Unbelievers that have a bus load of people out every week.
Unbelievers that will bail you out if your mugged or your car not starting.
Unbelievers that are money generous people.
Unbelievers that don't hate and judge.
Unbelievers that never been divorced and that are widows now.
Unbelievers that are positive and humble.
Unbelievers not phony.

This born again talk not real enough until we put the controversial bible issues on the table.

Who received Jesus if we mess with jewelry, costly array or 1 Peter 3:3 ?
Who accepted Jesus as savior if we mess with the Sabbath teaching today or Hebrews 4 ?


The philsophical label mess is not of God on any bible verse ?
His book a heaven or hell message on any bible verse !!!
Never mind if somebody Baptist or SDA ?
Do they just agree with God's book anywhere and not into what a big shot say only ?

I'm getting nosy to get in your business cause Amos 3:3 told me too !!!
Who in agreement with folks agreeing with God in the book anywhere ?

Who turning down jewelry when folks saying it's okay in marriage and anniversaries ?
Who turning down working Saturday when folks say they need money whenever they can get it ?

Who courageous enough to be the odd ball for God when holiness in the book somewhere makes you an outcast ?















Pquote="deputydog530"]What must be remembered about being born again, is many, even cults, will claim to be born again. Some mormons I talked to recently claimed to be born again. Just a note that we must be sure to teach salvation the bible way. By grace through faith in Jesus Christ, it is belief in the death burial and resurection of Christ, recieving him as saviour, and repenting (turning from our sin and turning to Christ).

I am hearing more and more from "Christians" who say they are saved. When you ask them about their salvation, they will say. "I was baptized..." or "I prayed the sinners prayer". These should be warning bells. The water does not save, the prayer does not save. The belief, and receiving, of Christ and repentance is what saves. Nothing wrong with praying the sinners prayer, as long as belief is with it.

I have heard to many times people, especialy children told. "say this prayer and your saved". If they did not understand or believe, they are given a false sense of salvation. This has troubled me for years. It started when I saw and heard of preachers getting saved after preaching or years etc. They were saved as children (or thought so). My point is to make sure we are sharing Christ in truth of the word. Make sure people truly understand. Then, if there is 0 fruit ever, we should revisit salvation with them again. God knows the heart, but we must make sure we are sharing the gospel in truth.

Not meaning to hi-jack the thread, this has just been on my heart and this looked like a good place to share. :wave:
God Bless

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Are you a SDA?

In this, are you speaking of those who profess, but yet are not truly saved?

<<"Unbelievers believe in the cross for their atonement with sin.
Unbelievers love their neighbor as they love their self.
Unbelievers that are faithful to their spouse.
Unbelievers that are good parents and employees.
Unbelievers that don't cuss and run red lights.
Unbelievers that are great tycoons and celebrities.
Unbelievers that don't smoke, drink and do drugs.
Unbelievers that have a bus load of people out every week.
Unbelievers that will bail you out if your mugged or your car not starting.
Unbelievers that are money generous people.
Unbelievers that don't hate and judge.
Unbelievers that never been divorced and that are widows now.
Unbelievers that are positive and humble.
Unbelievers not phony.">>

Are you saying if a person is wearing jewelry they're not saved?
<<"Who turning down jewelry when folks saying it's okay in marriage and anniversaries ?">>

Are you saying a person is lost if they work on Saturday?
<<"Who turning down working Saturday when folks say they need money whenever they can get it ? ">>

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Salvation is such a wondrous thing. I was saved when I was 12 or 13 years old. I know for sure that I am going to Heaven now. :Green What a glorious thing it is to be saved!


Kind of makes it seem you got saved before me, I didn't get saved until I was 14 years and 8 months old.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Let's deal with Mark 16:16 since we talking about who a saved person is according to the book.
Mark states a believer and baptized person is saved according to the book.
Self explanatory about the water baptism to be born again or saved according to John 3:5.
Who's know a believer if their saved is the next question?
Is it just a Romans 10:9 bible believer or an Ephesians 2:8 bible believer on the grace of God alone ?
Well what you have faith in is what you believe in right?
Both faith and believe are interchangeable words synonymous.
This what Paul had to say about faith.
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing come by the word of God.
That's Romans 10:17 explaining what faith is in for a Christian or believer.
Since faith is in the word of God and not just a confident outlook on life then let's find out what faith is really in if we're a
Christian or believer.
Now time to mess with Matthew 4:4.
Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Since all our faith as a Christian come by the word of God then where we get the word of God from ?
Now time to mess with 2 Timothy 3:16.
All the bible scripture we find is inspired by God for teaching and correcting and building the body of Christ together.
Well we find that the word of God is all the bible only and not some philosophical persuasion to have.
Unless our faith is in all the bible and not some philosophical persuasion exclusively then we don't have the mind of Christ as a saved person going to heaven.
Now time to mess with Romans 8:14 .
Your only a child of God says Paul if your operating in the Spirit of God and not some exclusive spirit of your philosophical beliefs of life.
What is the Spirit of God is the next question ?
Now time to mess with John 6:63.
The words I speak unto you says John are spirit and they are life.
We find now that the Spirit of God is all the bible only and not some exclusive spirit of one's philosophical beliefs of life.
We now can conclude that faith and the Spirit of God is exclusively in all the bible only if we saved people that are believers or Christians.
We buried our philosophical beliefs for the righteous of God if we born again people saved says Paul.
We can go to 2 Corinthians 5:17 for clarification on this good.
We also can go to Romans 10:2-3 for great clarification on this even more.
Isaiah compares our righteousness to filthy rags according to Isaiah 64:6.
God not caring about any philosophical moralism of man no matter how good he is.
If we taken on the righteousness of God then we got to deal with his rule book on jewelry and costly array.
Peter and Paul messing with a saved believer only in 1 Peter 3:3 and 2 Timothy 2:9-14.
If Peter and Paul not messing with you it's because you have another father your a child of according to John 8:44.
Same is true if Paul not messing with you in Hebrews 4.
Only God's people hear his spoken book on salvation everywhere.
We got John 10 for clarity on a believer or sheep hearing his voice.
Again all the book about salvation according to Matthew 4:4.
If you not living by every spoken book word of God then you got a carnal spirit unto death.
No philosophical persuasion just giving you what Paul bringing out in Roman 8:6.
Carnal moralism is exclusive moralism with philosophical beliefs only.
Bible moralism is guaranteed moralism for life and salvation in Jesus.
Philosophical moralist believe some of the bible but not all of it.
Some endorsement of bible moralism still makes you a child of the devil.
Coming from James 2:19.
The devil we find endorses some of the moralism of the bible if we talk about the Godhead for one example.
Matthew and Luke had to rebuke Satan and tell them that we live by all the word of God spiritually .
Coming from Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4.
We find life for salvation in Jesus is actually by total endorsement of all the bible to apply not just love thy neighbor as thy self and not just the cross of Jesus bailing us out with salvation as believers only.
All mean all in both Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4.
All mean all in 2 Timothy 3:16.
All don't take a vacation cause you bring up Paul and Peter talking about jewelry, costly array and the Sabbath teaching today.
All don't take a vacation cause you bring up Paul talking about women preachers and women pastors according to
1 Timothy 2;9-14.
Every mean every in Matthew 4:4 and Luke 4:4 if you operating in the righteous of God with the book for your moralism for heaven.
Only your philosophical beliefs are buried in the sand if they exalted over the righteousness of God.
Again we got Paul messing with you in Matthew 10:2-3.
I said it already so if Paul not messing with you here then your father is mentioned in John 8:44.
Only speaking to God's children with the book.
They heard him before they hear me anyway.
They not waiting on a big shot to hear him in the book anywhere too long.
Got clarification of this in Matthew 15:14.
They not taken years or decades to understand or hear him in his book anywhere too long.
Got clarification of this in John 10.



Are you a SDA?

In this, are you speaking of those who profess, but yet are not truly saved?

<<"Unbelievers believe in the cross for their atonement with sin.
Unbelievers love their neighbor as they love their self.
Unbelievers that are faithful to their spouse.
Unbelievers that are good parents and employees.
Unbelievers that don't cuss and run red lights.
Unbelievers that are great tycoons and celebrities.
Unbelievers that don't smoke, drink and do drugs.
Unbelievers that have a bus load of people out every week.
Unbelievers that will bail you out if your mugged or your car not starting.
Unbelievers that are money generous people.
Unbelievers that don't hate and judge.
Unbelievers that never been divorced and that are widows now.
Unbelievers that are positive and humble.
Unbelievers not phony.">>

Are you saying if a person is wearing jewelry they're not saved?
<<"Who turning down jewelry when folks saying it's okay in marriage and anniversaries ?">>

Are you saying a person is lost if they work on Saturday?
<<"Who turning down working Saturday when folks say they need money whenever they can get it ? ">>
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Again we got Paul messing with you in Matthew 10:2-3.
I said it already so if Paul not messing with you here then your father is mentioned in John 8:44.

Matthew 10:2-3 says:
Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

#1: God used Matthew, not Paul, to write the book of Matther.
#2: How in the world is Paul, or anyone, messing with anyone here?

Why is it you think that if people disagree with you their father is the devil? You seriously believe that you have the corner market on Biblical truths? Sorry, tonytony, but you have pulled many of these things out of context badly.

Let's look at the first verse you mentioned in your post: Matthew 16:16.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Sorry, but the last part of this verse puts baptism where it belongs in regards to salvation: nowhere. If the person who believes in Christ does not get baptized, they are not damned, else God, who is all-wise, would have said so. Mortal man does not have the authority to gainsay that, no matter how much verbiage they may want to use. There are many other scriptures that support the fact that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

The mechanical set-up of this verse is much like this:

Say a person is waiting for a bus. It stops, and the driver says, "He that getteth on the bus and sitteth down shall get to town. He that getteth not on the bus shall not get to town."

Sitting down on the bus is desired. But if a person stood the whole time, they'd still get to town - as long as they got on the bus.

Similarly, God is teaching us that we are to place our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is the first step of obedience after salvation. But it is not a part of salvation.
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[quote="HappyChristian"][quote="tonytony"]Again we got Paul messing with you in Matthew 10:2-3.
I said it already so if Paul not messing with you here then your father is mentioned in John 8:44.
[/quote]
Matthew 10:2-3 says:
[quote]Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
[/quote]
#1: God used Matthew, not Paul, to write the book of Matther.
#2: How in the world is Paul, or anyone, messing with anyone here?

Why is it you think that if people disagree with you their father is the devil? You seriously believe that you have the corner market on Biblical truths? Sorry, tonytony, but you have pulled many of these things out of context badly.

Let's look at the first verse you mentioned in your post: Matthew 16:16.
[quote]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. [/quote]
Sorry, but the last part of this verse puts baptism where it belongs in regards to salvation: nowhere. If the person who believes in Christ does not get baptized, they are not damned, else God, who is all-wise, would have said so. Mortal man does not have the authority to gainsay that, no matter how much verbiage they may want to use. There are many other scriptures that support the fact that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

The mechanical set-up of this verse is much like this:

Say a person is waiting for a bus. It stops, and the driver says, "He that getteth on the bus and sitteth down shall get to town. He that getteth not on the bus shall not get to town."

Sitting down on the bus is desired. But if a person stood the whole time, they'd still get to town - as long as they got on the bus.

Similarly, God is teaching us that we are to place our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is the first step of obedience [u]after[/u] salvation. But it is not a part of salvation.[/quote]

Is he saying if your not perfect, your not saved?

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Is he saying if your not perfect' date=' your not saved?[/quote']

I don't know - he could believe in sinless perfection. But it appears to me that what he's doing is listing things (and taking many out of context) that are the results of salvation and sanctification, but making them an immediate prooftext for salvation. And also misapplying a lot.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Great catch that was a typo mistake.
Again meaning Romans 10:2-3 instead rather than Matthew 10:2-3.



Matthew 10:2-3 says:

#1: God used Matthew, not Paul, to write the book of Matther.
#2: How in the world is Paul, or anyone, messing with anyone here?

Why is it you think that if people disagree with you their father is the devil? You seriously believe that you have the corner market on Biblical truths? Sorry, tonytony, but you have pulled many of these things out of context badly.

Let's look at the first verse you mentioned in your post: Matthew 16:16.

Sorry, but the last part of this verse puts baptism where it belongs in regards to salvation: nowhere. If the person who believes in Christ does not get baptized, they are not damned, else God, who is all-wise, would have said so. Mortal man does not have the authority to gainsay that, no matter how much verbiage they may want to use. There are many other scriptures that support the fact that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

The mechanical set-up of this verse is much like this:

Say a person is waiting for a bus. It stops, and the driver says, "He that getteth on the bus and sitteth down shall get to town. He that getteth not on the bus shall not get to town."

Sitting down on the bus is desired. But if a person stood the whole time, they'd still get to town - as long as they got on the bus.

Similarly, God is teaching us that we are to place our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is the first step of obedience after salvation. But it is not a part of salvation.
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Yes people live it up to big shots and label groups to get this talk on water baptism in the bible correct.
Water is water and spirit is spirit or we wouldn't have an "and" conjunction word for our English grammar in
Mark 16:16.
An "and" conjunction word in our English grammar again in John 3:5 too.
Peter said in his epistle book that water in baptism is not for the putting away of the flesh but rather for an
answer of a clear conscious with God.
Wow!!! Wow!!!! Wow!!!
Three (3) people confirming that water baptism is a part of salvation if somebody going to heaven.
Actually (5) people confirming that water baptism is a part of salvation.
We got Matthew 3 stating that water baptism fulfills all righteousness. Jesus says so directly in the book of Matthew.

Hey the big shots are going to say that Jesus didn't water baptize a thief to be saved so water baptism is ruled out for
sure to be saved to go to heaven.

It was Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 that said God is not the author of confusion.
God don't say yes and no with contridictions on what he wants us to do to be saved.
Paul in Hebrews 6 got deep into talk about baptisms to get into if time permit.

Hey we talking (6) people messing with water baptism for salvation if it's more then one baptism.

We know about water baptism.
We know in the book of Luke about the baptism of repentance.
We know about the baptism of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues.
Baptism until death or the baptism of repentance all the same.

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tony - I can see where you get your ideas in Rom. 10:2,3. But you can't just extract verses. Look at the passage:

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Christ is the end of the law...and please note that baptism is never mentioned in this verse...in fact, in this whole chapter
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Where is baptism, tony? Nowhere. Salvation is a heart issue. There is no righteousness involved in baptism - only obedience AFTER being saved...
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Again, no baptism. Whosoever shall call...not whosoever shall call and get dunked!

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Good Post Happy

Tony there is one verse that must be remembered in everything you study.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


Water baptism is a private interpretation. You can not disregard certain parts of the Bible to make the rest say what you think.

2 Tim 3:16 says "All scripture...." Not part.

Baptism is a work and works are filthy rags to the Lord.

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1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; {"see Ephesians 2:8-10'} to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 4:1-25 (KJV)

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 (KJV)

And of course, this verse only says that he that beleiveth not shall be damned, it does not say he who is baptized not shall be damned. To say that this verse means that a person who is not baptized shall be damned is adding to the Bible. That is extremely dangerous.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:18-19 (KJV)

6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov 30:6 (KJV)

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deut 4:2 (KJV)

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Deut 12:32 (KJV)

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  • 1 month later...

Your right Jerry the righteousness of God with the new law teaching for today is God's plan of salvation. While the old law of Moses with the hundreds of ordinances is obsolete for the plan of salvation today we still can't say jewelry, costly array, makeup,
painted nails, and yes women preachers and women pastors is under the definition of old law works under the law of Moses. In fact jewelry, makeup, painted nails and yes costly array as well as women preachers and women pastors is new law works for today
according to 1 Peter 3:3 and 1 Timothy 2:9-14. Works not a man made legalism doctrine unless we say we saved by the law of Moses with the hundreds of ordinances. Works is a God made doctrine according to Ephesians 2:9 and yes 1 Timothy 6 if we put jewelry, costly array, makeup, painted nails and yes women preachers and women pastors on the table for bible discussion. In conclusion Paul talks about works for today and works obsolete for a bible believing Christian going to heaven. Works is not necessarily a man made legalism doctrine is another way of paraphrasing Paul's message in Esphesians 2:8-9. That's why it's hard for people to accept other teaching for today in the bible. It's more to going to heaven besides loving your neighbor as you love yourself and simply confessing your a sinner needing the cross and grace of Jesus for atoneable salvation in God's righteousness. More to Godly repentance besides giving up drinking, smoking and not judging and hating people. More to going to heaven besides being peaceful and humble and telling the world your a Christian and you want them to be one too. More to going to heaven then people coming to Christ because of what they like about us that's Godly. Wasn't it Matthew that said that Christians shall be hated of all men for his name's sake? Wow many of us been raised and convinced that real Christians are suppose to be well liked celebrities so much!!! Wrong!!! You not going to be called a real Christian if you tell somebody to take their jewelry off before you marry them. You not going to be called a real Christian if you refuse to marry a man and a women if one of them been divorced from somebody else before. Matthew 6 really tells it like it is about a real Christian in the real experienced world of life. You tell a family member not to marry a divorced person you really making an enemy or more. Romans 7:2-3 is like telling somebody a cuss word if we courageous and be real about enough. People got published books on their autobiography or testimonial life as a converted Christian but they hate Romans 7:2-3 or call Romans 7:2-3 a philosophical man made doctrine instead of calling it a God made
doctrine for heaven in the bible. They really hate 1 Peter 3:3 and rather tell you about their autobiography book or testimony on how they came to Christ. Why can't they come to Christ and deal with divorce and remarriage with bible instructions on how to go to heaven? Why can't they deal with jewelry and makeup and costly array with bible instructions on how to go to heaven? The same is true if we get into it with the Sabbath teaching and yes women preachers and women pastors, etc. I don't expect a child of the devil to catch on to what the bible is saying here. Only expect the children of God to catch on to what the bible is saying here. People are brainwashed into looking for the real ministry of God with big shots and intellectuals with glamor formed with books and the media. Anybody can be a big shot and intellectual with the spotlight through books in stores and through the help of the media. All the bible exposes clues on where the real ministry of God is only. Trouble is if being an all the bible Christian
means your marked as a legalism preacher by Satan. People looking for the real ministry of God through bits and pieces of Godly character in people. We lieing if we say unbelievers not nonjudgmental and merciful too. We lieing if we say unbelievers not humble and are great parents too. We lieing if we say unbelievers don't cast our demons too. Pharoah is the first example in bible history of this being true. We lieing if we say that don't have relatives and friends packing out a ministry every week. Until we find out the real ministries of God through bible issues that rather be swept under the rug then we phony about a equal yoke with God's people as Paul, David and Amos encourages. Finding an equal yoke with folks that agree with God on all the bible is quite a task but it's what believers seek after while preparing for heaven. How can people have a equal yoke in Christ with God's people if some of the bible is despised as philosophical dotrine by man only ? I refuse to call a ministry a ministry of God if jewelry is called a man made philosophical doctine of man. I refuse to call a ministry a ministry of God if people say jewelry doctrine is a works doctrine obsolete today. Only call a doctrine an obsolete doctine if the teaching says you have to obey the ordinances of the law of Moses. Otherwise I agree with God on what his bible instructions are on going to heaven today. Do we have a child of God agreeing with God like this? You don't I know what to call you or the book can for me.


quote="Jerry80871852"]1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; {"see Ephesians 2:8-10'} to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 4:1-25 (KJV)

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 (KJV)

And of course, this verse only says that he that beleiveth not shall be damned, it does not say he who is baptized not shall be damned. To say that this verse means that a person who is not baptized shall be damned is adding to the Bible. That is extremely dangerous.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:18-19 (KJV)

6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov 30:6 (KJV)

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deut 4:2 (KJV)

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Deut 12:32 (KJV)

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So do I understand that you believe that you must do more than put your trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection 1Cor 15:1-4 for your salvation? If we are saved by "grace through faith" that means I put my faith in the grace of God. Not in any work I could ever do, if Christ did the work for me.

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When Paul said not of works in Romans 3 and Ephesians 2:8 he was talking about ordinances of the law of Moses ONLY.
There are works to do today according to Ephesians 2:9 and Mark 16:16.
The law of Moses has nothing to do with obeying God in Mark 16:16 and 1 Peter 3:3.
New law for a new time.
John 1:17 or so to verify this.
Jesus personally said he came not to destroy the law done away with according to Matthew 5:19 or so.
What's replaced is only is cause it has an expiration date only.
What's doing the replacing is not the cross of Jesus only.
It's also the new doctrine of Jesus as well as the cross of Jesus too.



So do I understand that you believe that you must do more than put your trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection 1Cor 15:1-4 for your salvation? If we are saved by "grace through faith" that means I put my faith in the grace of God. Not in any work I could ever do' date=' if Christ did the work for me.[/quote']
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When Paul said not of works in Romans 3 and Ephesians 2:8 he was talking about ordinances of the law of Moses ONLY.
There are works to do today according to Ephesians 2:9 and Mark 16:16.
The law of Moses has nothing to do with obeying God in Mark 16:16 and 1 Peter 3:3.
New law for a new time.
John 1:17 or so to verify this.
Jesus personally said he came not to destroy the law done away with according to Matthew 5:19 or so.
What's replaced is only is cause it has an expiration date only.
What's doing the replacing is not the cross of Jesus only.
It's also the new doctrine of Jesus as well as the cross of Jesus too.





Tony, So that I can know for sure I'm truly saved, in addition to the cross of Jesus, which new works must I do to be saved? and what percentage of them? If I ever fail in doing those works do I lose my salvation?
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8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:8-9 (KJV)

Seems Tony is denying God's grace and tries to make salvations by works.

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I'm a bit surprised I haven't noticed this before now. So allow me to now join in...

I see you seem to think that salvation is - at least - partly earned.
(Isaiah 64:6) - "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
These verses say our righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord. Think about it: eternal life is priceless. The Bible says, "What would it profit a man if he were to gain the whole world and lose his soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Do you really, truly and honestly, think that your "righteousness" can save you? It is filthy rags! Do you really believe think you can earn that which is impossible to earn? The Bible says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Not of works. Not of any works; works of the law, or any deeds whatsoever. All of it is as filthy rags before the Lord.
(Galatians 2:16) - "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Only when we are saved are works of any worth.

(Hebrews 11) - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. {2} For by it the elders obtained a good report. {3} Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. {4} By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

{5} By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. {6} But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. {7} By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. {8} By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. {9} By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

{10} For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. {11} Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. {12} Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. {13} These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. {14} For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

{15} And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. {16} But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. {17} By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son. {18} Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: {19} Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

{20} By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. {21} By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. {22} By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. {23} By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. {24} By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

{25} Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; {26} Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward. {27} By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. {28} Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. {29} By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

{30} By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. {31} By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. {32} And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: {33} Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, {34} Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

{35} Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: {36} And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: {37} They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; {38} (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. {39} And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: {40} God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Faith is what saved these people; not their works. You can turn to this if you wish, though, I suppose:
(James 2:24) - "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
You are not saved by your works; Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states this. However, your faith is basically worthless unless you do not do the work of the Kingdom of God. These verses explain this:
(James 2:14-20) - "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? {15} If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, {16} And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? {17} Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. {18} Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. {19} Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. {20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

What it means by saying "faith without works is dead", is that, as I said, your faith is worthless without doing the work of the Kingdom of God; it is dead.
Works do not save you - they only show the power of your faith; whether it is worthless, or of great worth.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

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tonytony wrote:
When Paul said not of works in Romans 3 and Ephesians 2:8 he was talking about ordinances of the law of Moses ONLY.


2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Dont know where your getting this tony but it isnt anything the BIble teaches. Your makeing your own private interpretations.
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Doug138 wrote: Adam was created in the image of God. When he sinned, he died in two ways. First, the Spirit of God left him, & he became spiritually dead. Second, the flesh God made him was created to last forever, but after he sinned, the death process began.

The rest of us were not so much created in God's image, but in Adam's fallen image. Adam was created eternal and died. We were born spiritually dead, like our father Adam, but can be reborn. When we are born again, we re-acquire what Adam had originally, the Spirit of God in us.

Hey, Doug...that statement is great....You are soooooo right! I love it!

You know the new birth in the Spirit is kinda like the physical birth. When a baby is born into this world, there is a cry, if not, the doctor spanks and then the baby cries, if the baby doesn't cry, then it is a dead baby. That is the way it is in the Spiritual birth. When someone receives the Holy Ghost, there will be evidence of the Spirtual birth, and that evidence is the cry of the tongues. If there is no tongues, then the babe never is born alive. A repented baby will stay in the womb and never enjoy real life until they are fully born again. That is why we must seek the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

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Bro. Dave, do you not know anything about the book of Acts? Everytime a beliver received the Holy Ghost they spoke in another tongues. That is the evidence that you have received the Holy Ghost.


Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19: 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

I just love the Word of God, don't you Bro. Dave?

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I like Paul in 1cor 14:19

had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue
.
I learned a long time ago some of the things God used before
that which was perfect was come
, (cannon of scripture) He does not use any more. 1 Cor 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away
. 1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away
Because we have the complete "perfect" Word of God things that were in part have been done away with IE.. prophecies, tongues, knowledge.

And another thing, when you baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: as Mat 28 commands you have included Jesus name haven't you?
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Bro. Dave, there is a difference in speaking in tongues when you are born again of the Spirit and the spiritual gift of tongues. The gift of tongues is use in the Church as to when God gives a message to the Church, and then the gift of interpretation is used. Every time someone received the Holy Ghost in the book of Acts, they spoke in tongues. That is the evidence that they have been born again of the Spirit.

I Corinthians 6-10 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The only perfect one that I know of is Jesus Christ. When he comes it will be all over. No more need for speaking in tongues or for prophesy, because we will be caught up with Jesus in the air. If you hadn't received the Holy Ghost when the perfect one comes, then it is too late. No need to try to speak in tongues then.

And on that other thing...about Matthew 28:18-19...Jesus was speaking to his disciples, and you know Peter was there and heard what Jesus told him to do...and don't you know that Peter obeyed Jesus Christ in Acts 2:38. I believe Peter understood what Jesus told him to do..don't you? Then if Peter didn't obey Jesus....we should just throw in the towel.

Everyone baptized in the book of Acts were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

I do believe that it is important to say "in the name of Lord Jesus Christ for remission of sins" The name is very important.

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