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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
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      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

History of the IFB Movement...Are there any good books on the subject?

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I have been reading several books on Baptist history. I haven't really found a "start date" for the Independent, Fundamental Baptist movement. Is there one? I've got history books from the semester that I was in a "Missionary Baptist" Bible college in E. Peoria, IL, but it is so crazy on some things that I won't use it except for comparison on certain things. Is there a good Baptist history book that would help in establishing a timeline and history of the IFB movement?

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"What God Hath Wrought" by William P. Grady. 

Not a history of IFB per se but covers a lot about the history of Baptists in general, including IFB, in the formation of America.

There's really not a whole lot written that isn't negative or someone writing about how they escaped the "IFB cult".

IFB in it's present form really didn't rise until around the 1920's with the infiltration of churches, particularly Southern Baptist, by progressivism. 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, SureWord said:

"What God Hath Wrought" by William P. Grady. 

Not a history of IFB per se but covers a lot about the history of Baptists in general, including IFB, in the formation of America.

There's really not a whole lot written that isn't negative or someone writing about how they escaped the "IFB cult".

IFB in it's present form really didn't rise until around the 1920's with the infiltration of churches, particularly Southern Baptist, by progressivism. 

 

 

 

I believe I've got tht particular book. Don't remember who gave it to me. When I was in college in Illinois, they had us read George W. Dollars book on the Baptists. Sort of incomplete in my opinion, but gives some good insight into some things. Someone suggested I go to the Way of Life (David W. Cloud) site...I don't read much of his material. Not a fan of his.

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I am very uncomfortable with Independent Baptists being called a "movement". Perhaps there is such a thing, but historically Independent Baptists have been just what the name implies....Independent. To me, if it is a movement is is not Scriptural.

To me, once you classify it as a "movement" you are getting very close to it being some sort of denomination. When we look at the churches in the NT we see that each church was Independent, self governing, autonomous, not governed or influenced by any other church, or higher institution.

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20 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

I am very uncomfortable with Independent Baptists being called a "movement". Perhaps there is such a thing, but historically Independent Baptists have been just what the name implies....Independent. To me, if it is a movement is is not Scriptural.

To me, once you classify it as a "movement" you are getting very close to tit being some sort of denomination. When we look at the churches in the NT we see that each church was Independent, self governing, autonomous, not governed or influenced by any other church, or higher institution.

Point taken. I just grew up with it being called a movement, and it was even referred to as such in the three Bible colleges I attended. For me it doesn't equal a denomination. But, I can see where some would get that impression from the terminology. 

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Posted (edited)

David Cloud's historical material seems to be written in a different vein than his apologetic/discernment material. If you are someone who perhaps does not like the way he comes across when he is disputing false teachings and exposing corruption in modern Christendom, you may still find his historical material of a sort you can read and be blessed from. He just came out with a history of the churches that is two volumes, starting from the first century. I have only read about 50 pages of it so far but I am sure he must get into Baptist/Anabapist, etc. history in there. He has done a lot of articles and some books on that type of material. Perhaps you could search his site to see what books he has regarding Baptists - possibly some free ones too (though those  might be ones exposing corruption in modern day Baptist churches). If you cannot find any specific titles that may be helpful, I can go through my books and ebooks and see what is along those lines. He probably also has an extensive article in his way of life encyclopedia on that subject. Too much to post here (though it is okay to post quotes, but not articles or long sections of his material), but if you pm me, I can copy/paste it into an email for you.

Edited by Jerry
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27 minutes ago, Jerry said:

David Cloud's historical material seems to be written in a different vein than his apologetic/discernment material. If you are someone who perhaps does not like the way he comes across when he is disputing false teachings and exposing corruption in modern Christendom, you may still find his historical material of a sort you can read and be blessed from. He just came out with a history of the churches that is two volumes, starting from the first century. I have only read about 50 pages of it so far but I am sure he must get into Baptist/Anabapist, etc. history in there. He has done a lot of articles and some books on that type of material. Perhaps you could search his site to see what books he has regarding Baptists - possibly some free ones too (though those  might be ones exposing corruption in modern day Baptist churches). If you cannot find any specific titles that may be helpful, I can go through my books and ebooks and see what is along those lines. He probably also has an extensive article in his way of life encyclopedia on that subject. Too much to post here (though it is okay to post quotes, but not articles or long sections of his material), but if you pm me, I can copy/paste it into an email for you.

I don't have a problem with his exposing bad theology, etc. I have a HUGE problem with his arrogant attitude and his inability to admit when he is wrong. I have had many preacher friends who have called him out on inaccuracies, especially concerning themselves, and he has yet to apologize for any of these inaccuracies, or to make them right. I have no time for such a man. I used to get his e-newsletter every day, and had it for years, but with the arrogance came a contempt for anyone who would question his "authority." UGH! That was one thing that finally made us leave one IFB church. They were defending a KNOWN child molestor and his wife, and a well-known pastor and Bible college in Indiana were helping this man with financial gifts to fight the charges. When he went back to the area where the Bible college was, he was put on platform and given a huge amount of praise...He wasn't persecuted at all...but he WAS prosecuted and I believe, spent some time in the prison here. I grew up with some of these actions in the church I was raised in, and it was quite distasteful! For many years it affected my relationship with God, and at times, it could still get the best of me if I let it. I don't stand for false teaching, nor for arrogance and the like.

With all of the above being said, I may check Clouds website and see what is now available on the subject. HIs history was usually not far from the truth if he went off course. 

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Posted (edited)

I get it. I am not there in regards to Cloud - but I understand where other people come from. I have not found inaccuracies in his materials (perhaps not read the items in question - even if I disagree with some of his conclusions, he documents his quotes and gives the Scripture references so others can check these things out). Too bad there is no sound, separated ministry of a similar nature today that is KJVonly that I am aware of.

That being said, would you like me to pm or email you any articles he may have in his encyclopedia on the history of Baptists?

This was specifically quoted under the Baptist topic - by someone else, so probably won’t make your hair curl too much. 😉

THE HISTORY OF THE BAPTISTS is given in the following summary by Curtis
Whaley:


Baptists do not trace their heritage to the Protestant Reformation, but back to Jesus Christ and the apostolic churches, as we see in the following overview by Curtis Whaley:


Though many Baptist groups sprang up during the Protestant Reformation, according to Collier’s Encyclopedia, the Baptists have ‘descended from some of the evangelical “sects” of the preceding age during which the Roman and Orthodox Churches dominated all of Europe and suppressed all dissent.’ A Catholic, Cardinal Hosius, President of the Council of Trent (1545-1563), wrote during the early years of the Reformation period, ‘Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater numbers than all the reformers.’ This should convince anyone that the Baptists are not a by-product of the Reformation, and are not even Protestants in the popular sense of the term.


If the Baptists did not begin with the Reformation, when did they begin? We will let a great American and world historian answer. John Clark Ridpath (1840-1900), a Methodist by denominational conviction, wrote, ‘I should not readily admit that there was a Baptist church as far back as 100 A.D., although without doubt there were Baptist churches then, as all Christians were then Baptists.’ Yes, all Christians were then Baptists, because the doctrines that Baptists believe and teach today are the same as those taught by the Lord Jesus Himself, by Peter, John, Paul, and all the Apostles.


We have not always been called ‘Baptists.’ The name is not a self-chosen one. Follow- ing what we believe to be apostolic precept and example, the Baptists rejected infant baptism, insisted on a ‘regenerate membership,’ and baptism sought intelligently by the candidate as a condition for church membership. For these reasons they were stigmatized as ‘Anabaptists,’ ‘Cata-baptists,’ and sometimes as simply ‘Baptists.’ This was to say they were [called by their enemies] ‘rebaptizers, perverts of baptism,’ or, as unduly emphasizing baptism and making it a reason for schism, simply ‘baptizers.’ We are proud of the name, because it distinguishes our doctrinal position which is set forth in the N.T. and identifies us with a host of saints who have believed the same precious truths and were identified with the same denominator.


The premise that first century Christians were Baptists runs counter to the Roman Catholic claim that the first church was Roman Catholic. To this we need only point out that the first church was organized by Christ and His Apostles, and those Apostles became the nucleus of the church at Jerusalem, not Rome, and James was its leader, not Peter. We also contend that the bishop of Rome did not win primacy over other bishops until the fourth century, and that it wasn’t until Gregory ascended the episco- pal throne in 590 A.D. that the Roman bishop began to claim his supremacy over other bishops. Thus we see that Roman Catholicism dates back to the fourth century at the earliest. [See Church, Roman Catholic Church.]


While we do not contend that only Baptists are going to heaven, we do contend that the first church was organized according to principles historically maintained by Baptists, and that Baptists have existed since that day. First called Christians, then by other names down through the centuries until they received the name that has distinguished them from Protestant and Catholic groups alike (Curtis Whaley, Who Are the Baptists?).

Edited by Jerry
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3 minutes ago, Jerry said:

I get it. I am not there in regards to Cloud - but I understand where other people come from. I have not found inaccuracies in his materials (perhaps not read the items in question - even if I disagree with some of his conclusions, he documents his quotes and gives the Scripture references so others can check these things out). Too bad there is no sound, separated ministry of a similar nature today that is KJVonly that I am aware of.

That being said, would you like me to pm or email you any articles he may have in his encyclopedia on the history of Baptists?

No thank you. I'll just rummage through his site. I also just came across a CD I have of his that has his encyclopedia up to about six years ago. So, I should be pretty good on this. Thank you for the offer, though. Blessings.

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I guess he doesn't get too much into Baptist history in his Encyclopedia. He must mostly focus on that in some of his books.

I do have his Fundamental Baptist CD Rom, which includes Non-David-Cloud Baptist histories from the 18-19th centuries that I could send you by email. They are in PDF format. If interested, I could load up the CD and list the titles here, and you can pm me your email address and indicate which ones you were interested in.

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15 minutes ago, Jerry said:

I guess he doesn't get too much into Baptist history in his Encyclopedia. He must mostly focus on that in some of his books.

I do have his Fundamental Baptist CD Rom, which includes Non-David-Cloud Baptist histories from the 18-19th centuries that I could send you by email. They are in PDF format. If interested, I could load up the CD and list the titles here, and you can pm me your email address and indicate which ones you were interested in.

I've got his CD rom. I just came across it the other day. It was still in my old desktop. I don't ever use the desktop anymore. I use my laptop. It's broken anyhow. I don't have a power button on it. I need to buy a new button and put in the system. Just haven't been of the mind to do it yet. 

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Ok. I can still send you the pdfs or list them here if that may help. I am familiar with a couple of the titles and they are worth reading.

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2 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Ok. I can still send you the pdfs or list them here if that may help. I am familiar with a couple of the titles and they are worth reading.

Thanks anyhow...I'll just rummage through his site. 😉

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7 hours ago, Jerry said:

I get it. I am not there in regards to Cloud - but I understand where other people come from. I have not found inaccuracies in his materials (perhaps not read the items in question - even if I disagree with some of his conclusions, he documents his quotes and gives the Scripture references so others can check these things out). Too bad there is no sound, separated ministry of a similar nature today that is KJVonly that I am aware of.

That being said, would you like me to pm or email you any articles he may have in his encyclopedia on the history of Baptists?

This was specifically quoted under the Baptist topic - by someone else, so probably won’t make your hair curl too much. 😉

THE HISTORY OF THE BAPTISTS is given in the following summary by Curtis
Whaley:


Baptists do not trace their heritage to the Protestant Reformation, but back to Jesus Christ and the apostolic churches, as we see in the following overview by Curtis Whaley:


Though many Baptist groups sprang up during the Protestant Reformation, according to Collier’s Encyclopedia, the Baptists have ‘descended from some of the evangelical “sects” of the preceding age during which the Roman and Orthodox Churches dominated all of Europe and suppressed all dissent.’ A Catholic, Cardinal Hosius, President of the Council of Trent (1545-1563), wrote during the early years of the Reformation period, ‘Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater numbers than all the reformers.’ This should convince anyone that the Baptists are not a by-product of the Reformation, and are not even Protestants in the popular sense of the term.


If the Baptists did not begin with the Reformation, when did they begin? We will let a great American and world historian answer. John Clark Ridpath (1840-1900), a Methodist by denominational conviction, wrote, ‘I should not readily admit that there was a Baptist church as far back as 100 A.D., although without doubt there were Baptist churches then, as all Christians were then Baptists.’ Yes, all Christians were then Baptists, because the doctrines that Baptists believe and teach today are the same as those taught by the Lord Jesus Himself, by Peter, John, Paul, and all the Apostles.


We have not always been called ‘Baptists.’ The name is not a self-chosen one. Follow- ing what we believe to be apostolic precept and example, the Baptists rejected infant baptism, insisted on a ‘regenerate membership,’ and baptism sought intelligently by the candidate as a condition for church membership. For these reasons they were stigmatized as ‘Anabaptists,’ ‘Cata-baptists,’ and sometimes as simply ‘Baptists.’ This was to say they were [called by their enemies] ‘rebaptizers, perverts of baptism,’ or, as unduly emphasizing baptism and making it a reason for schism, simply ‘baptizers.’ We are proud of the name, because it distinguishes our doctrinal position which is set forth in the N.T. and identifies us with a host of saints who have believed the same precious truths and were identified with the same denominator.


The premise that first century Christians were Baptists runs counter to the Roman Catholic claim that the first church was Roman Catholic. To this we need only point out that the first church was organized by Christ and His Apostles, and those Apostles became the nucleus of the church at Jerusalem, not Rome, and James was its leader, not Peter. We also contend that the bishop of Rome did not win primacy over other bishops until the fourth century, and that it wasn’t until Gregory ascended the episco- pal throne in 590 A.D. that the Roman bishop began to claim his supremacy over other bishops. Thus we see that Roman Catholicism dates back to the fourth century at the earliest. [See Church, Roman Catholic Church.]


While we do not contend that only Baptists are going to heaven, we do contend that the first church was organized according to principles historically maintained by Baptists, and that Baptists have existed since that day. First called Christians, then by other names down through the centuries until they received the name that has distinguished them from Protestant and Catholic groups alike (Curtis Whaley, Who Are the Baptists?).

I agree completely with what you wrote here Bro. Jerry. In fact I just taught these very things in our church as a series on church history and used the same people you mentioned: Cardinal Hosius and John Clark Ridpath.

In trying to trace Baptist history we run into great difficulty in that, these churches were being persecuted and hiding out, so-to-speak. In many case there were no written records and the only record of them even existing was written by their enemies.

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