Women preachers, deacons, pastors, preists. . .

[Guest Guest]

I just don't see how claiming what ever information you have is correct, is the same as asserting authority. Now, if she said one thing, and was presented with facts to the contrary, and she continued to assert that her opinion was right, then she would be asserting authority.

She is just sharing information she has learned, not asserting it's authoratativeness. Anyone is free to do their own research to confirm what she teaches, and anyone can express an opposing view.

Ptwild...is this directed to me? If so, I am talking about Sunday School. My church is set up so that ALL can learn from oneanother in Sunday School...women included. :smile

candlelight

Also...with respect to our church choir, we have 2 choir directors...the Assistant Pastor ( a man) and a preacher's wife to the Missionary Agency in my church. They both work hand-in-hand, and it does WORK!!! :thumb

[Jerry]

I just don't see how claiming what ever information you have is correct, is the same as asserting authority. Now, if she said one thing, and was presented with facts to the contrary, and she continued to assert that her opinion was right, then she would be asserting authority.

She is just sharing information she has learned, not asserting it's authoratativeness. Anyone is free to do their own research to confirm what she teaches, and anyone can express an opposing view.

She is a teacher; therefore she has authority over her students. As far as your second paragraph goes, there is NO college or school with the mentality you have. If a student does not accept the material taught, they will fail their course - otherwise, frankly, the whole purpose of that particular college or school would be in vain.

[ptwild]

I may have been too vague in my description of the class. My church is not apart of a college. The classes are all voluntary. You can come one time or every time. If you don't like it half way through, you are free to leave and go to another. There are no tests, and no credit is given. The teacher is there to facilitate discussion while providing information learned through education and experience. I would assume she has facts to support any assertion she makes, but I think it is more along the lines of her sharing her knowledge of Hebrew culture and language as a way of helping us come to a better understanding of it. She is not saying "I am right and [someone else] is wrong." She is merely stating, "this is what I think as a reslut of my education and experience."

And if you look a little deeper, would the facts be authorative? If she is merely passing along facts which we are not aware of, is she asserting authority, or merely sharing undisputable facts?

[JerryNumbers]

I disagree (some what). I'll explain the situation first: My church's adult Sunday school program is kind of like college in that you can select which class you take. At any given time there are probably as many as three classes being conducted, each covering a different topic for anywhere from one to three months. Sometimes the classes are taught by church members, but often they bring in someone else, espeicially if that someone has specific knowledge about a certain subject. In this situation, there is a class being offered that cover's the ancient hebrew texts. The vestry has brought in a well known and received expert on the hebrew language, and which also has a doctorate of divinity, and is also a woman.

My disagreement comes from our differing undestandings of "authority." The way I see it, a woman would be exercising authority if a man said the Bible said one thing, and the woman asserted that it stated something else, to the exclusion of what the man stated. If the woman is only offering a different interpretation, and not asserting that her interpretation is the primary one, then I don't consider that an exercise of authority.

In the situation I am talking about, the lady will be bringing her knowledge, and experience, of the hebrew language and culture to our class. To my understanding, she won't be promoting her opinions or stating that her opinions are authoritive. She is only there to teach us what we ourselves do not know.

Why disagree with God?

[Guest Guest]

Just to give an example...3 months ago I was invited to attend one of my friend's SBC churches on a Saturday morning. She was preaching to men and women. I declined b/c I know this is not Biblical. Goodness, in the RCC is was taught this as a young girl. There are so many scriptures that show where a woman should NOT preach...and why? Someone listed them in this thread. My friend understands where I am coming from...her family frowns on her preaching, so I pray that the Holy Spirit takes hold of her heart on this one. I have recommended a wonderful IFB church only 15 minutes from her house. The women do a lot of fellowship w/ oneanother. She told me that this is what she needs. :smile I continue to pray that the Lord will lead, guide, and direct her path.

The other SBC church where my other friends go...do not allow women to preach...only teach, to children and to other women.

candlelight :wave:

[ptwild]

candlelight: The teacher I am speaking of will not be preaching.

[HappyChristian]

pt, I understand where you are coming from with this...but I have to disagree with you. Any teacher who stands before a class is an authority figure to that class. Not that the teacher is asserting to be the fountain of all knowledge or that the teacher must be followed or everyone is wrong. Just the fact of presenting the knowledge lends an authority to the teacher. God said that women were to be silent in the church, not usurping the authority of a man. That means teaching a man, as well as pastoring a church, in a church or religious setting. It doesn't mean a woman cannot share things in a class...but to be the teacher - or even just the facilitator - isn't right. Even as a facilitator, if the woman doesn't present any information, she is in charge. And it's not right. God didn't create women to lead men (I know you know this...but I said it to emphasize again that teaching a class is leading a class - and leading is authority...)

[Jerry]

I see two possibilities here:

1) She is presenting what the OT Hebrew has to say - that makes her a spiritual authority.

2) She is presenting information that is not consistent with what the OT Hebrew has to say - which makes her a false teacher.

There is nothing wrong with the first one if she is teaching women and children - but it certainly would be wrong for her to be a spiritual authority over men. And of course, the second one would automatically be wrong.

[ptwild]

Jerry, I disagree with number one. I don't see presenting what the Bible has to say as asserting oneself as authority. I don't see anyone that presents the what the Bible has to say to me as having authority over me. I see the Bible as the authority and the person relating it to me as a messenger. Look at it this way, if an army general records his orders on a tape and then sends another officer to the infantry and has him to play those tape recorded orders to the infantry, who has authority? Is it the General, the tape recorder, or the person controling the tape recorder? Also, authority involves one person being above another in some sort of ranking system. I just don't see that at play here.

[HappyChristian]

pt - it isn't a matter of the teacher asserting him/herself as authority. It is a matter of the authority being God's Word (yes), and the presenter having the authority to present it. That authority comes from God, and He said a woman wasn't to usurp that authority over man. The General example is really that way...the orders were issued by the General, to another officer, who has authority also, under the General, and so forth...the presenter has the authority as the presenter. A private isn't going to present orders to the men. It is always the highest rank...the highest authority.

[ptwild]

HC, forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but are suggesting that a male preacher has the authority to actually "do something with" the Bible? The Bible says what it says. It is our authority. It doesn't say anything different when a woman reads it than when a man reads it.

Back to this particular situation, no one in my church has a sufficient knowledge of Hebrew culture and language to be teaching it to others. This lady is an authority, at least compared to me and my fellow church members, of Hebrew language and culture. I can't read nor speak Hebrew, so anyone that can is an authority of it, at least when compared to me. There is no denying that she knows more about this subject than everyone else at my church. Whether she stands in front of my Sunday school class or not, she is an authority over this subject when compared to everyone else.

[Colin Stolzer]

So am I understanding this correctly, that once you become a man you can't learn anything from a woman about scripture, because she would be teaching you and that would put her in a position of authority over you. Because the concept of teaching according to Jerry automatically applies authority, so it doesn't matter whether a woman has one adult male student or 100 she is in authority over a male and that makes her against God's will. Correct me if I am misunderstanding any of you, because this concept intrigues me.

C

[ptwild]

So am I understanding this correctly, that once you become a man you can't learn anything from a woman about scripture, because she would be teaching you and that would put her in a position of authority over you. Because the concept of teaching according to Jerry automatically applies authority, so it doesn't matter whether a woman has one adult male student or 100 she is in authority over a male and that makes her against God's will. Correct me if I am misunderstanding any of you, because this concept intrigues me.

C

That is my understanding of the arguement as well. I think it is just a difference in what one considers to be "authority."

And in my situation, the woman is not usurping the man because there is no man with the qualifications to teach the class.

[JerryNumbers]

That is my understanding of the arguement as well. I think it is just a difference in what one considers to be "authority."

And in my situation, the woman is not usurping the man because there is no man with the qualifications to teach the class.

You can't teach Sunday school truths if your disobeying God, for a woman to teach men is disobeying God, Scriptures have already been given why a woman cannot teach men, but you ignore them. But I will put them below once again.

With this going on your church is not in step with God and is not carrying out God's will.

A woman, no matter how much Bible education and knowledge she has, does not have the authority from God to teach men.

1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Cor 14:34-35
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


1 Tim 3:2 (KJV)
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

1 Tim 2:12-15
12 But "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man", but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

What part of a woman not to teach a man do you fail to understand in 1 Timothy 2:12?

Or is it you disagree with God on this matter and do it your way?

Even if there is no man present that you think does not have the qualifications to teach, a woman still cannot teach a man.

But the problem here seems to be, because of this woman's education your saying that the men in church do not have as much education as here therefore they are not qualified.

I know many men who do not know a word of Hebrew that are great Sunday school teachers.

It not how much one knows, its how they use what knowledge they do have.

For instant, this woman Sunday school teacher, even though she has much knowledge, she openly disobeys God by teaching men. So all the knowledge she has is not doing her one bit of good, for she is disobediant.

[Guest Guest]

pt' date=' I understand where you are coming from with this...but I have to disagree with you. Any teacher who stands before a class is an authority figure to that class. Not that the teacher is asserting to be the fountain of all knowledge or that the teacher must be followed or everyone is wrong. Just the fact of presenting the knowledge lends an authority to the teacher. God said that women were to be silent in the church, not usurping the authority of a man. That means teaching a man, as well as pastoring a church, in a church or religious setting. It doesn't mean a woman cannot share things in a class...but to be the teacher - or even just the facilitator - isn't right. Even as a facilitator, if the woman doesn't present any information, she is in charge. And it's not right. God didn't create women to lead men (I know you know this...but I said it to emphasize again that teaching a class is leading a class - and leading is authority...)[/quote']

Well stated...HappyChristain, and Biblical. :thumb

candlelight