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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

Are Rock and Country/Western music wrong?

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BrotherTony
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I was raised in the IFB movement during the 70s and stayed in during the 80s-2000. While I was in the IFB circles I heard preachers constantly preaching about the Rock and Country/Western music scene and how they were "sensual, devil inspired" types of music. Many had some great background on it, but yet I found that they were allowing some CCM into their services that had the same driving beats, slurred English (Slurring words to make them sound more 'Southern' in nature...example, Karen Carpenter), and swaying, montra type lyrics. It bothered me to some degree. I was very heavy into the Rock and Country scenes growing up, especially since my father owned part of a Western store in Illinois. The church was always on me, and I even had two youth pastors from the church confiscate tapes and sheet music that I had in my car or on my person while I was on a church bus. Shaming me didn't really make things better...it just made me rebellious, because the ones taking the items were involved in allowing their "Christianized versions" of the same types of music into the youth services and adult services alike. 

So, with all of that said, what types of music are acceptable in your opinion, or according to Scriptures? I know where I stand on music. I have a friend from my days at Maranatha Baptist Bible College who wrote a couple of books on music. Are churches sliding on a slippery slope by allowing CCM into their services? Are people allowing the beats, sensuous sounds, and other things involved in the music control their bodies or their spirits? 

Please, try to stay on subject. Please don't deflect by asking me for definitions of what I'm talking about. I'm sure most of you, if you've been in the IFB circles for any length of time as I have been, know what I'm speaking of. Thanks in advance.

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Posted (edited)

I think this is a conscience decision. I've heard some Country and Rock music that doesn't seem as ungodly as modern day CCM

My experience is most pastors never preached against Country music which can be as bad as Rock music, at least lyrically. 

Anyway, Rock music is pretty much dead while Rap, Pop and Country music (which is more like Southern Pop) is what everyone listens to so a preacher preaching against Rock music in front of a crowd of young people is gonna seem out of touch.

Edited by SureWord
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55 minutes ago, SureWord said:

I think this is a conscience decision. I've heard some Country and Rock music that doesn't seem as ungodly as modern day CCM

My experience is most pastors never preached against Country music which can be as bad as Rock music, at least lyrically. 

Anyway, Rock music is pretty much dead while Rap, Pop and Country music (which is more like Southern Pop) is what everyone listens to so a preacher preaching against Rock music in front of a crowd of young people is gonna seem out of touch.

I can agree with you to an extent. Rock music is dead in some places in this country. I know here in the Nashville, TN area it is alive and well, as is Rockabilly and Country. We have a LOT of ROCK stations...classic rock, hard rock, heavy metal, etc. There was just a station taken over in Shelbyville that is now in a classic rock format. The people my age are still listening to the old rock and roll songs. It's becoming more stylish for them to listen to the music of their youth. I know that in our church most of the music being pushed by our youth pastor in the CCM field is hip hop, rap, etc. To an old fogie like me it's disgusting music, but the kids really love it. I don't believe it makes it acceptable just because they like it. But, I'm not going to argue the point with the youth pastor or anyone else. I know the music that most of our hymns came from was considered worldly bar music and people who wrote hymns were always receiving some kind of flack. I just refer them to Kent Brandenburg's book "Sound Music or Sounding Brass." I went to college with Kent, and his mother was my boss in the kitchen when I worked there.

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8 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

I can agree with you to an extent. Rock music is dead in some places in this country. I know here in the Nashville, TN area it is alive and well, as is Rockabilly and Country. We have a LOT of ROCK stations...classic rock, hard rock, heavy metal, etc. There was just a station taken over in Shelbyville that is now in a classic rock format. The people my age are still listening to the old rock and roll songs. It's becoming more stylish for them to listen to the music of their youth. I know that in our church most of the music being pushed by our youth pastor in the CCM field is hip hop, rap, etc. To an old fogie like me it's disgusting music, but the kids really love it. I don't believe it makes it acceptable just because they like it. But, I'm not going to argue the point with the youth pastor or anyone else. I know the music that most of our hymns came from was considered worldly bar music and people who wrote hymns were always receiving some kind of flack. I just refer them to Kent Brandenburg's book "Sound Music or Sounding Brass." I went to college with Kent, and his mother was my boss in the kitchen when I worked there.

When I said "dead" I mean there is nothing new coming out and most of the new generation don't bother with it. 

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6 hours ago, PastorMatt said:

How would one define CCM?

Good question. I guess I'm saying the new Christian music I find playing on the local Christian station to be dreadful. The droning on and on over the same chorus and the effeminate and sensual way of singing where they sound like they are singing to a lover. 

Don't think the world doesn't notice this style of singing either. A few years back a famous adult cartoon on TV had a whole episode poking fun at CCM music and the carnal way they sing.

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Eh. I think this is an issue people become Pharisees about. I do not believe it’s good to listen to music purely devoted to romance, or drugs which is most music for time millennium  but also I do not think listening to slice of life music is bad. I do listen to mostly Christian music, but a good slice of life song is better than a bad Christian rock song or whatever is on the ‘Christian radio’ 

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Country music often tells a story and may of those story songs have moral lessons proclaimed and some are very religious. For instance, the Hank Williams song, "I Saw the Light." Also, Haberson's, "Will the Circle Be Unbroken." "Why Me Lord," by Kris Kristofferson has a very strong Christian message. Just three examples. 

There are hymns often sung in church that contain bad theology, but that is a topic for another thread.

 

Edited by Bouncing Bill
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It's all "rock-n-roll" as it comes from the same spirit.  Where do we find these good secular Christian songs?  Scattered amongst secular "records" and radio.  Even with good words, the structure of the music with its focus on the beat or rhythm is not bible either.  We're not supposed to eat the meat and spit out the bones, we're supposed to practice biblical separation.  

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2 hours ago, swathdiver said:

It's all "rock-n-roll" as it comes from the same spirit.  Where do we find these good secular Christian songs?  Scattered amongst secular "records" and radio.  Even with good words, the structure of the music with its focus on the beat or rhythm is not bible either.  We're not supposed to eat the meat and spit out the bones, we're supposed to practice biblical separation.  

I do not believe the structure of music makes it either good or bad. Perhaps from a cultural viewpoint. But even culturally would be a stretch in my mind. I do not understand your statement 'biblical separation' when it comes to music. To me the words would make the difference. 

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15 hours ago, SureWord said:

Good question. I guess I'm saying the new Christian music I find playing on the local Christian station to be dreadful. The droning on and on over the same chorus and the effeminate and sensual way of singing where they sound like they are singing to a lover. 

Don't think the world doesn't notice this style of singing either. A few years back a famous adult cartoon on TV had a whole episode poking fun at CCM music and the carnal way they sing.

The truth of the matter is this: Many Christian teens notice the worldly way these "Christian" songs resemble the "worldly" music, and they call it hypocrisy...at least many of the youth I know personally. I don't know how others in other churches react. I've not been visiting other churches these days. I still stand by the Biblical standard that "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."

 

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2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

The truth of the matter is this: Many Christian teens notice the worldly way these "Christian" songs resemble the "worldly" music, and they call it hypocrisy...at least many of the youth I know personally. I don't know how others in other churches react. I've not been visiting other churches these days. I still stand by the Biblical standard that "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."

 

Yes, I agree. I just really think it comes down to conscience in these matters. I think it's safe to side with more conservative, traditional music in church. 

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10 hours ago, SureWord said:

Yes, I agree. I just really think it comes down to conscience in these matters. I think it's safe to side with more conservative, traditional music in church. 

Rather like the discussion about eating meat offered to idols in the New Testament.

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Ok, where to begin....

 

This absolutely nothing like meat offered to idols. Music is one of the most important things in the Christian life. Consider Ephesians 5:18-21 where he says, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." When we look at it without the verse separations we see that this is all one sentence, and as such it is one thought. From this we can learn that being filled with the Spirit is directly linked with things like submission, thankfulness, and Godly music. It is an undeniable truth that music is an integral part of the Spirit-filled life, and the last time I checked, the things of God are not dependent on our opinion about them. When it comes to music, our opinion about it does not matter.

When we talk about the structure of music, it is an undeniable fact that the way music is structured as an effect on our body and our mind. Anyone who has spent any amount of time honestly looking at it will know that the mind effects the body and spirit, the spirit effects the body and mind, and the body effects the spirit and mind. If you are physically sick, you are at a higher risk of depression, and the depressed person will nearly always be unsuccessful in walking with God. That is just one example of how the three are intertwined. When we look at music, the first effect we see is the beat. That's because it's the most obvious. This effects are body. Even lost, secular, rock 'n roll artist knew (and know) the the beat drives the body. What most Christians teaching about music don't tell you, is that the beat is also the easiest part of the music to correct. This is why you have so many churches taking CCM music and "fixing" it. If the only issue with CCM was the beat, I would agree with them. The more subtle structure of music is the melody. CCM tends you use a repetitive, almost monotonous form of melody. What we see from this (there was an excellent study on this done called "Music and the mind" but I don't remember the man's name) is that it will do one of two things depending on the person. For some people it will irritate them and make them want to shut it up. For other's, it will set them in a semi hypnotic state. This is how CCM, and other forms of music, introduce false doctrine into their songs without people rejecting it. There can also be harmonies which are wrong. This is a working premise of blues, jazz, rag, and such like that has worked itself into "Gospel" music. There are two forms of harmony, consonance and dissonance. Consonance resolves itself and is "pleasant", dissonance does not resolve itself and is "unpleasant" on it's own. There is a lot of music the works off of unresolved dissonance, or dissonance that "resolves" into something that doesn't really resolve it. This adversely effects the emotions. And lastly there is lyrics. If any song is unscriptural, it should not be sung. I don't care if it's a "precious old hymn" or a brand new single.

Do many young people think that we are being Pharisees with our music? Probably, but that's because many Christians, and a lot of preachers do. One of the most prevalent responses I get when talking to preachers about music is "I don't really know anything about music". Well, if you don't know anything about music, learn. We wouldn't take that attitude with submission, we would learn about submission. We wouldn't take that attitude about thankfulness, we would learn about thankfulness. We shouldn't take that attitude about music, it's necessary in living a Spirit-filled life.

In reference to Country and Rock music...

I love apples, but I'm not digging through the dump to find one.

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1 hour ago, Musician4God1611 said:

Ok, where to begin....

 

This absolutely nothing like meat offered to idols. Music is one of the most important things in the Christian life. Consider Ephesians 5:18-21 where he says, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." When we look at it without the verse separations we see that this is all one sentence, and as such it is one thought. From this we can learn that being filled with the Spirit is directly linked with things like submission, thankfulness, and Godly music. It is an undeniable truth that music is an integral part of the Spirit-filled life, and the last time I checked, the things of God are not dependent on our opinion about them. When it comes to music, our opinion about it does not matter.

When we talk about the structure of music, it is an undeniable fact that the way music is structured as an effect on our body and our mind. Anyone who has spent any amount of time honestly looking at it will know that the mind effects the body and spirit, the spirit effects the body and mind, and the body effects the spirit and mind. If you are physically sick, you are at a higher risk of depression, and the depressed person will nearly always be unsuccessful in walking with God. That is just one example of how the three are intertwined. When we look at music, the first effect we see is the beat. That's because it's the most obvious. This effects are body. Even lost, secular, rock 'n roll artist knew (and know) the the beat drives the body. What most Christians teaching about music don't tell you, is that the beat is also the easiest part of the music to correct. This is why you have so many churches taking CCM music and "fixing" it. If the only issue with CCM was the beat, I would agree with them. The more subtle structure of music is the melody. CCM tends you use a repetitive, almost monotonous form of melody. What we see from this (there was an excellent study on this done called "Music and the mind" but I don't remember the man's name) is that it will do one of two things depending on the person. For some people it will irritate them and make them want to shut it up. For other's, it will set them in a semi hypnotic state. This is how CCM, and other forms of music, introduce false doctrine into their songs without people rejecting it. There can also be harmonies which are wrong. This is a working premise of blues, jazz, rag, and such like that has worked itself into "Gospel" music. There are two forms of harmony, consonance and dissonance. Consonance resolves itself and is "pleasant", dissonance does not resolve itself and is "unpleasant" on it's own. There is a lot of music the works off of unresolved dissonance, or dissonance that "resolves" into something that doesn't really resolve it. This adversely effects the emotions. And lastly there is lyrics. If any song is unscriptural, it should not be sung. I don't care if it's a "precious old hymn" or a brand new single.

Do many young people think that we are being Pharisees with our music? Probably, but that's because many Christians, and a lot of preachers do. One of the most prevalent responses I get when talking to preachers about music is "I don't really know anything about music". Well, if you don't know anything about music, learn. We wouldn't take that attitude with submission, we would learn about submission. We wouldn't take that attitude about thankfulness, we would learn about thankfulness. We shouldn't take that attitude about music, it's necessary in living a Spirit-filled life.

In reference to Country and Rock music...

I love apples, but I'm not digging through the dump to find one.

Do you sing hymns that contain bad theology? Hymns such as:

  1. I'll Fly Away
  2. Bring Them In
  3.  He Lives
  4. Softly and Tenderly Jesus is Calling
  5. Away in the Manager

All these hymn I've listed I have loved. But I have grown and realize there is one or more theological problems with each hymn.

The one hymn I really do not like is: 

There is a Fountain

Years ago I had a friend who almost did not continue to attend church and become a Christian because of this hymn. The opening line, "There is a fountain filled with blood" almost made her throw up and there is no theological truth in that line. Indeed, it is an untrue statement. 

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35 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Years ago I had a friend who almost did not continue to attend church and become a Christian because of this hymn. The opening line, "There is a fountain filled with blood" almost made her throw up and there is no theological truth in that line. Indeed, it is an untrue statement. 

I hope you're not take that fountain as a literal fountain. Anyways this would be another topic if you wish to answer and talk about hymns that are not "Theologically" correct

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55 minutes ago, PastorMatt said:

I hope you're not take that fountain as a literal fountain. Anyways this would be another topic if you wish to answer and talk about hymns that are not "Theologically" correct

Literal, no ... but the statement is bad theology. There is no truth in it. 

In fact, the entire hymn is full of heresy. 

So, does your church sing this hymn? Would you support having it sung in a worship service? 

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6 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Literal, no ... but the statement is bad theology. There is no truth in it. 

In fact, the entire hymn is full of heresy. 

So, does your church sing this hymn? Would you support having it sung in a worship service? 

I repeat.......Anyways this would be another topic if you wish to answer and talk about hymns that are not "Theologically" correct

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6 hours ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Rather like the discussion about eating meat offered to idols in the New Testament.

Not really...meat is not something "sensual" in nature. It doesn't affect the body with a driving beat...it doesn't affect the emotions instead of the spirit as music does. The adversary knows what he is doing in the area of music. Doesn't the Bible tell us to sing to ourselves in "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs?" When we are using music in the church services, shouldn't we be using music that affects us in a POSITIVE spiritual manner instead of negatively affecting us, as most studies have shown that music with a driving, sensual beat does? Read the book I mentioned above. Also, talk to many people in the music industry as I have, and listen to how they say that they are surrounded by spirits moving them in certain ways. John Mellencamp is one. James Brown was another. Dan Fogelberg, Bobby Helms (he sang "Jingle Bell Rock" and "Frauline" in the 50s and is a relative of mine), and many others have all said the same thing. Ask any music professor at most IFB colleges. They'll give you the same information on how today's music isn't scriptural. I'm not saying whether or not this is my standing. I'm just saying that this is something that has been brought to my attention several times over the past 40 years. 

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2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Not really...meat is not something "sensual" in nature. It doesn't affect the body with a driving beat...it doesn't affect the emotions instead of the spirit as music does. The adversary knows what he is doing in the area of music. Doesn't the Bible tell us to sing to ourselves in "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs?" When we are using music in the church services, shouldn't we be using music that affects us in a POSITIVE spiritual manner instead of negatively affecting us, as most studies have shown that music with a driving, sensual beat does? Read the book I mentioned above. Also, talk to many people in the music industry as I have, and listen to how they say that they are surrounded by spirits moving them in certain ways. John Mellencamp is one. James Brown was another. Dan Fogelberg, Bobby Helms (he sang "Jingle Bell Rock" and "Frauline" in the 50s and is a relative of mine), and many others have all said the same thing. Ask any music professor at most IFB colleges. They'll give you the same information on how today's music isn't scriptural. I'm not saying whether or not this is my standing. I'm just saying that this is something that has been brought to my attention several times over the past 40 years. 

Music can be very  sensual. Music can change moods. Compare a funeral dirge with a a John Phillips Souza march. One is depressing the other makes puts us in a happy mood. 

What references in the Bible do you use to determine if the music is scriptural or not?

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