Jump to content
Online Baptist Community

Cessationism and re-emergence of gifts in end times

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Members

I've been convinced that the spiritual gifts of sign gifts and ministry gifts have completed their purpose and are now ceased. And that it was the completion of the canon with the death of the apostles that completed its purpose.

 

I have though heard from others about in Revelation with the reemergence of I think it was  prophets, and signs and wonders. 

I'm just wondering how this harmonises with cessationism? 

I'm thinking maybe it's not the work of God using spiritual gifts but demonstrations of His power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
59 minutes ago, 360watt said:

I've been convinced that the spiritual gifts of sign gifts and ministry gifts have completed their purpose and are now ceased. And that it was the completion of the canon with the death of the apostles that completed its purpose.

 

I have though heard from others about in Revelation with the reemergence of I think it was  prophets, and signs and wonders. 

I'm just wondering how this harmonises with cessationism? 

I'm thinking maybe it's not the work of God using spiritual gifts but demonstrations of His power.

I Cor. 1:22 "the Jews require a sign".

The Great Tribulation is also the "time of Jacob's trouble". Signs and miracles will return. Probably tongues also. Especially if tongues are just languages not previously known to the speaker. There's no doubt that at least the two witnesses will be able to perform miracles probably the 144,000 also.

As far as the sign gifts and healings ceasing with the completion of the canon of scripture, they probably ceased before that. More likely at the end of Acts when Israel made it clear they didn't want Jesus Christ to rule over them. Definitely by time the temple was destroyed I'd say the signs were done. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
20 hours ago, SureWord said:

I Cor. 1:22 "the Jews require a sign".

The Great Tribulation is also the "time of Jacob's trouble". Signs and miracles will return. Probably tongues also. Especially if tongues are just languages not previously known to the speaker. There's no doubt that at least the two witnesses will be able to perform miracles probably the 144,000 also.

As far as the sign gifts and healings ceasing with the completion of the canon of scripture, they probably ceased before that. More likely at the end of Acts when Israel made it clear they didn't want Jesus Christ to rule over them. Definitely by time the temple was destroyed I'd say the signs were done. 

So, is scripture that the gifts ceased,  but not forever? 

Fulfilled purpose for a time? 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 360watt said:

So, is scripture that the gifts ceased,  but not forever? 

Fulfilled purpose for a time? 

 

They were primarily to get the Jews to receive their Messiah. If the Tribulation is a period of time when God turns again to Israel than I assume the sign gifts will start up again. Can I find scripture to conclusively prove this? No. It's more of a pattern I see in scripture.

Revelation 11:6- These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Here's another curious statement by our Lord:

Matthew 10:23- But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus is talking to the twelve apostles in the context of the Second Coming. Figure that one out. Some have suggested this could be the return of the apostles during the Great Tribulation. I don't know about that but I wouldn't doubt if the apostolic signs and gifts return again.

Edited by SureWord
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
15 hours ago, SureWord said:

They were primarily to get the Jews to receive their Messiah. If the Tribulation is a period of time when God turns again to Israel than I assume the sign gifts will start up again. Can I find scripture to conclusively prove this? No. It's more of a pattern I see in scripture.

Revelation 11:6- These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Here's another curious statement by our Lord:

Matthew 10:23- But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus is talking to the twelve apostles in the context of the Second Coming. Figure that one out. Some have suggested this could be the return of the apostles during the Great Tribulation. I don't know about that but I wouldn't doubt if the apostolic signs and gifts return again.

I believe, though I may be wrong, that the only sign specific to the Jews, was tongues, as it was given as fulfillment of prophecy, a prophecy actually AGAINST Israel, outlining their stubborn unbelief. (1Cor 14: 20-22  &  Is 28:11&12)  The other signs went out to the Gentile world during the time of the Apostles, but tongues always seemed to need to have Jews present. Like in the case of Cornelius and the Italian Band, they spoke in tongues, but it was Peter and his fellows, all saved Jews, who needed that sign for them to fully embrace that Jesus had granted salvation to the gentiles the same as to them. But I wouldn't argue it out, that's just what it seems to me at my reading.

Otherwise, I do believe that the signs and miracles are indeed over, though, as you say, the two witnesses will do many signs and wonders, but I think they, in this case, would qualify as apostles, sent from God on a specific mission, as the signs in the book of Acts are referred to as "signs of an apostle" by Paul. (2Cor 12:12). 

As for Matt 10:23, I think the Lord spoke it not just to them, but to ALL who would read and pay heed to His words through the years, as applicable to those who would be alive in that time, remembering that He himself admitted that He didn't know the time of His return, only the Father. But knowing His words would be recorded, He wrote them to whosoever would read and hear.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I believe, though I may be wrong, that the only sign specific to the Jews, was tongues, as it was given as fulfillment of prophecy, a prophecy actually AGAINST Israel, outlining their stubborn unbelief. (1Cor 14: 20-22  &  Is 28:11&12)  The other signs went out to the Gentile world during the time of the Apostles, but tongues always seemed to need to have Jews present. Like in the case of Cornelius and the Italian Band, they spoke in tongues, but it was Peter and his fellows, all saved Jews, who needed that sign for them to fully embrace that Jesus had granted salvation to the gentiles the same as to them. But I wouldn't argue it out, that's just what it seems to me at my reading.

Otherwise, I do believe that the signs and miracles are indeed over, though, as you say, the two witnesses will do many signs and wonders, but I think they, in this case, would qualify as apostles, sent from God on a specific mission, as the signs in the book of Acts are referred to as "signs of an apostle" by Paul. (2Cor 12:12). 

As for Matt 10:23, I think the Lord spoke it not just to them, but to ALL who would read and pay heed to His words through the years, as applicable to those who would be alive in that time, remembering that He himself admitted that He didn't know the time of His return, only the Father. But knowing His words would be recorded, He wrote them to whosoever would read and hear.  

The Pharisees asked for signs that weren't tongues.

I agree Matthew 10:23 could apply to any future group of believers I was just suggesting the possibilty of the return of the apostles in "spirit and power" perhaps via the 144,000. 

John the Baptist could have been a fulfillment of the promise of Elijah so it's possible another group will arrive in the spirit and power of the apostles so in a sense Matthew 10:23 would apply to the apostles.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
1 hour ago, SureWord said:

The Pharisees asked for signs that weren't tongues.

I agree Matthew 10:23 could apply to any future group of believers I was just suggesting the possibilty of the return of the apostles in "spirit and power" perhaps via the 144,000. 

John the Baptist could have been a fulfillment of the promise of Elijah so it's possible another group will arrive in the spirit and power of the apostles so in a sense Matthew 10:23 would apply to the apostles.

 

Oh, I'm not saying they didn't want more, just scripture only seems to indicate that, of the many signs done by the Apostles, tongues was the only one specifically given for Israel of the church by prophecy. That's not to include all the miracles of Jesus, or the arrival of John, just speaking of the church age sign gifts. Jesus' signs and miracles were to prove His identity as the Messiah, but the sign gifts of the apostles were given to prove the authenticity of the church as a work of God, and the tongues were the only one prophesied as being specifically for Israel. This is what I meant, though again, I may be incorrect, but that's who I read it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...