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Posted (edited)

There is no parallel from the other gospels for the following quotation from Luke 21. Has anyone studied this, I'm trying to gather all I can. 

"and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven." [Luke 21:11]

What will these "fearful sights and great signs...from heaven" be? Is the Lord speaking of Godly signs, man-made signs, or signs of deception by Satan? Or, is it in reference to Luke 21:25-26 and Mark 13:24-25?

"and great signs shall there be from heaven; as comets and blazing stars, a flaming sword, or a comet like one, hanging over Jerusalem, and armies in the air engaged against each other" John Gill's Commentary

Edited by 1Timothy115
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Posted (edited)

Brother 1Timothy115,

I believe that contextually Luke 21:11 is a summary statement that looks forward to the statement of Luke 21:25.  Furthermore, I believe that contextually the phrase, "But BEFORE all these things," with which Luke 21:12 begins, places all that is reported in verses 12-24 as a contextual break between the report of Luke 21:11 and Luke 21:25.  As such, I would hold that Luke 21:12-24 reveals the events that will occur throughout "the times of Gentiles" (the time of the church age) as per verse 24; and I would hold that the report of Luke 21:11 & 25 (in union with one another) reveals events that will occur during the time of the Tribulation Period.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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4 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

There is no parallel from the other gospels for the following quotation from Luke 21. Has anyone studied this, I'm trying to gather all I can. 

"and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven." [Luke 21:11]

What will these "fearful sights and great signs...from heaven" be? Is the Lord speaking of Godly signs, man-made signs, or signs of deception by Satan? Or, is it in reference to Luke 21:25-26 and Mark 13:24-25?

"and great signs shall there be from heaven; as comets and blazing stars, a flaming sword, or a comet like one, hanging over Jerusalem, and armies in the air engaged against each other" John Gill's Commentary

It's possible that some things taking place in heaven will be seen on earth during the Great Tribulation. Most notably Revelation 11:11-19. The world watches the slain witnesses ascend to heaven, they hear the voice of God from heaven declaring the kingdoms of the world now belong to the Lamb, there's thunders, lightnings, voices, and the temple of God opens and the ark can be seen. My guess since this passage states the nations of the world become angry at this is because they can see and hear it going on.

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Or perhaps Luke 21: 11 is referencing the Trumpet announcements. Which I believe are not God's Wrath but rather the result of sin intensifying throughout the world making all of God's creation groan and travail as the end approaches. The Lord says that He will then destroy they whom have destroyed the earth before His Vials of Wrath are poured (Rev 11:18).  Climate change is definitely real but not in the way the reprobates say. I believe it is being caused as the result of sin exponentially intensifying in spiritual sodom and throughout the host nations of Israel's desolation in 70AD as the end gets closer. 

Seals.thumb.jpg.a0e0d47f47cc7c99a6261e04925c8adf.jpg 

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Thanks everyone! I will look more closely at the text and do some comparative study. I was leaning toward verses 11 and 25 being much the same. I know this, Christ is speaking to disciples, he speaks of something disciples can see, from what vantage point disciples will observe is not clear to me.

A couple things throw me from just a cursory look, 22 "For these be the days of vengeance," and 27 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." I've been taught and believe in the rapture of the church, I've become somewhat flexible toward the church seeing tribulation or I suppose its better to say how much tribulation we might encounter before God pours out His wrath on the children of wrath. Its all very interesting to me but, I don't want to become imbalanced focusing on a part of one verse of scripture.

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The whole seven years of the tribulation is a time of God’s wrath. Compare Luke 21, Matthew 24, and Mark 13 with Isaiah 13.

Isaiah 13:6-13

Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand;
it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Therefore shall all hands be faint,
and every man's heart shall melt:
And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them;
they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth:
they shall be amazed one at another;
their faces shall be as flames.
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh,
cruel both with wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate:
and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light:
the sun shall be darkened in his going forth,
and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
And I will punish the world for their evil,
and the wicked for their iniquity;
and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease,
and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
I will make a man more precious than fine gold;
even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Therefore I will shake the heavens,
and the earth shall remove out of her place,
in the wrath of the LORD of hosts,
and in the day of his fierce anger.
 

Luke 21:25-28
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

in Isaiah 13 and Luke 21, there is both a near and far focus on the prophecies presented - but, notice how both passages use the same language to describe what will happen, and that Isaiah calls it the day of the Lord and a time of His wrath and anger.

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1 hour ago, 1Timothy115 said:

A couple things throw me from just a cursory look, 22 "For these be the days of vengeance," and 27 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." I've been taught and believe in the rapture of the church, I've become somewhat flexible toward the church seeing tribulation or I suppose its better to say how much tribulation we might encounter before God pours out His wrath on the children of wrath. Its all very interesting to me but, I don't want to become imbalanced focusing on a part of one verse of scripture.

Multitudes were taught erroneously that they would be saved from , or spared from, suffering if they became a 'Christian' in some gropus.    From all KJV and history, including the last ten years, and last couple centuries, and last 2000 years,

this is obviously not true testimony ,  not in line with Scripture at all, to tell them that they would not have to suffer or die for their faith in Jesus.

On 5/10/2021 at 8:26 AM, 1Timothy115 said:

There is no parallel from the other gospels for the following quotation from Luke 21. Has anyone studied this, I'm trying to gather all I can. 

Could you clarify for me what it is you want to find out more about ?   It certainly has all be studied and studied and studied, and ten thousand times a thousand volumes written about so many points (maybe a slight exageration here, but it sure feels that way) ....  and in the world system, as written, most of the many points of course are to keep peope from ever finding the truth or from even seeking for the truth and reality and Jesus.   Thus, everything must be verified by Scripture, in Harmony with all of God's Word, Plan and Purpose as He Himself Reveals.

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Speaking as a guy who has his thoughts about it all, let me say this: 

We need to be careful saying anything with great certainty, on timing of the rapture, or the second coming, (except we know Christ will return 7 years from the start, but how we gauge the start is a question), or how exactly ew are to interpret the 3  sevens: the seals, the trumpets and the vials of wrath. 

Personally, I have viewed, for quite a while, the seals to be sort of a 'preview of coming attractions', as they appear to encompass a lot of events, start to finish, of the tribulation/wrath, yet it all takes place at the throne of God as john is standing in heaven, in the spirit.  Then the seven trumpets I see as the general activities that Satan is allowed to do as he pours his fury out on earth, staring from the arrival of the Beast as a man of peace, followed by war, famine, death and hell, and so on. Of course, it is God who is allowing these things, but Satan conducting it.

Then the seven vials of God's wrath are specifically exactly that: God's outpouring wrath upon mankind, though this takes place directly after Christ reaps his harvest, in Rev 14:14, because  we are not appointed to wrath.

But even this I read as being quite linear, and there are things in Revelation that do not appear to be linear, whether it is overall linear, with certain, what I would call, parenthetical events that aren't linear, or the whole things goes back and forth in time, in which case, it is hard to really say just how it will all play out.

So I think we ought to study it, and pray over it, even speculate over it, but be careful setting definite doctrines of it all. Yes, Christ is coming, Yes, believers will be removed at some point, yes, Jesus is returning to rule and reign a thousand years, which I believe to be literal, Yes, there will be a final, literal battle at the end of the thousand years, and yes, heaven and Earth will pass away, and be replaced with a new Heaven and new Earth for all eternity. But many other things are just a bit vague. But I do love the conversations.

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4 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Speaking as a guy who has his thoughts about it all, let me say this: 

We need to be careful saying anything with great certainty, on timing of the rapture, or the second coming, (except we know Christ will return 7 years from the start, but how we gauge the start is a question), or how exactly ew are to interpret the 3  sevens: the seals, the trumpets and the vials of wrath. 

Personally, I have viewed, for quite a while, the seals to be sort of a 'preview of coming attractions', as they appear to encompass a lot of events, start to finish, of the tribulation/wrath, yet it all takes place at the throne of God as john is standing in heaven, in the spirit.  Then the seven trumpets I see as the general activities that Satan is allowed to do as he pours his fury out on earth, staring from the arrival of the Beast as a man of peace, followed by war, famine, death and hell, and so on. Of course, it is God who is allowing these things, but Satan conducting it.

Then the seven vials of God's wrath are specifically exactly that: God's outpouring wrath upon mankind, though this takes place directly after Christ reaps his harvest, in Rev 14:14, because  we are not appointed to wrath.

But even this I read as being quite linear, and there are things in Revelation that do not appear to be linear, whether it is overall linear, with certain, what I would call, parenthetical events that aren't linear, or the whole things goes back and forth in time, in which case, it is hard to really say just how it will all play out.

So I think we ought to study it, and pray over it, even speculate over it, but be careful setting definite doctrines of it all. Yes, Christ is coming, Yes, believers will be removed at some point, yes, Jesus is returning to rule and reign a thousand years, which I believe to be literal, Yes, there will be a final, literal battle at the end of the thousand years, and yes, heaven and Earth will pass away, and be replaced with a new Heaven and new Earth for all eternity. But many other things are just a bit vague. But I do love the conversations.

It appears that Brother Mike and I would have a number of disagreements concerning "the flow of thought" throughout the Book of the Revelation.

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17 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

It appears that Brother Mike and I would have a number of disagreements concerning "the flow of thought" throughout the Book of the Revelation.

Probably. Hebrew writing tend to move back and forth quite a lot, one of the reasons so many people look at Gen. 1&2, and see two different creation accounts, not understanding that the flow isn't all linear, rather Chapter 1 is an overview of the entire creation week, while chapter 2 is all about specifically the creation of man on the 6th day and what happened then, including the creating of one of each kind of animals and bird for Adam to name, and to give him a suitable mate. But many try to read it as linear, chapter 2 happened but is a different account of creation, making man first, then the animals and birds. 

As well, prophecy is often not terribly clear or specific-the destruction of Tyre was given as prophecy, yet took over 400 years to be completely fulfilled, in a few different events. The destruction of Nineveh was held of for 100 years due to the repentance of the people, but it still took place just as surely as God promised. 

This is all I am really saying: prophecy is rarely clear until after it is happened-I believe that we ought to look at it as literally as possible, yet even in the prophecies of the coming of Christ, we see allegory was used, as in the bulls of Bashan, and there weren't literal bulls of Bashan-there is often some allegorical usage in prophecy. So how much of what we read in revelation is allegorical or symbolic, how much is spiritual, or John reporting what he sees from a spiritual perspective, as to how it will appear in flesh to the eyes of them living during the events? Are the locust from the pit going to look literally as described to these on earth? or is John describing spiritual things that will look different to those here? Of course, personally, I believe there's no reason not to accept them as the Bible describes them, but I also give myself space to be wrong, because I am a man trying to figure out mighty spiritual activities, the likes of which have never been before. 

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9 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

The destruction of Nineveh was held of for 100 years due to the repentance of the people, but it still took place just as surely as God promised. 

I don't remember God promising the destruction of Nineveh.   May be just a picky detail,   or might be important ? 

Similarly I noticed God apparently did not tell the people through Jonah that there was a way Nineveh could be spared,  yet after they repented (in sackcloth and ashes?) , highest to lowest,  He did spare them.

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Jonah 1:2 (KJV) Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jonah 3:2 (KJV) Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

Jonah 3:4 (KJV) And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

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2 hours ago, jeff_student_of_Jesus said:

I don't remember God promising the destruction of Nineveh.   May be just a picky detail,   or might be important ? 

Similarly I noticed God apparently did not tell the people through Jonah that there was a way Nineveh could be spared,  yet after they repented (in sackcloth and ashes?) , highest to lowest,  He did spare them.

See Jim's quotes above for the first part of your comment.

And yes, I have often preached on the fact that the Lord declared a definite judgment, without any implied hope attached that He may not do it, yet due to their repentance, the Lord did, indeed, repent of what He was going to do to them. This tells us that the statement given to Israel that God is not pleased with the death of the wicked, but that the wicked would repent and be saved, applied to all who will repent, not just Israel, to whom the statement was actually made. 

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26 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

And yes, I have often preached on the fact that the Lord declared a definite judgment, without any implied hope attached that He may not do it, yet due to their repentance, the Lord did, indeed, repent of what He was going to do to them.

No one posted any Scripture of God's "Promise" to destroy Nineveh.  

His Word is always True - there is no one God can swear by , no oath God can take on anything to make His Word more certain, is there ? 

Did God get persuaded "due to their repentance" ?  If so,  why ?   Esau, though he repented with tears, could not persuade God, right ?  Or the betrayer, Judas ?

God spared Nineveh because He wanted to .

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There are several passages that give general prophecies of judgement that also state if those same people turn from their sin, God would withhold the judgement, and also the opposite: if the righteous turn from righteousness, God will bring judgement. I’m not feeling well, but I am sure it is not too hard to find those passages.

Also, though Esau repented and later wanted the birthright, God did not change His mind on giving it to Jacob (it was His plan to give it to Jacob all along). Esau was never interested in walking with the Lord or getting any spiritual blessings - he just wanted to feed his fleshly appetites.

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On 5/10/2021 at 9:26 AM, 1Timothy115 said:

"and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven." [Luke 21:11]

Back on topic, I suppose there are no other scripture references which might shed further light on what these "fearful sights" and "great signs" coming "from heaven" might be besides...

 

On 5/10/2021 at 9:26 AM, 1Timothy115 said:

Luke 21:25-26 and Mark 13:24-25

So, possibly that is the end of the original question...

 

On 5/10/2021 at 9:26 AM, 1Timothy115 said:

What will these "fearful sights and great signs...from heaven" be? Is the Lord speaking of Godly signs, man-made signs, or signs of deception by Satan?

Yes, I will refer back to Isaiah and look closer at Thessalonians and the Revelation. But, I continue to think the answer is here in the 3 synoptic gospels. Thanks folks!

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On 5/11/2021 at 4:10 PM, jeff_student_of_Jesus said:

Multitudes were taught erroneously that they would be saved from , or spared from, suffering if they became a 'Christian' in some gropus.    From all KJV and history, including the last ten years, and last couple centuries, and last 2000 years,

this is obviously not true testimony ,  not in line with Scripture at all, to tell them that they would not have to suffer or die for their faith in Jesus.

Could you clarify for me what it is you want to find out more about ?   It certainly has all be studied and studied and studied, and ten thousand times a thousand volumes written about so many points (maybe a slight exageration here, but it sure feels that way) ....  and in the world system, as written, most of the many points of course are to keep peope from ever finding the truth or from even seeking for the truth and reality and Jesus.   Thus, everything must be verified by Scripture, in Harmony with all of God's Word, Plan and Purpose as He Himself Reveals.

Yes, I agree that,  "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." [2 Timothy 3:12] however, to what degree all depends on the Lord. But, according to everything else I've read or studied and been taught, born again Christians will not suffer "great tribulation." I may see some tribulation, I think we all will, but not the seven years of of it from Daniel.

The original question is what I wanted to find out more about but, I'm beginning to believe I have the answer. That answer being the inclusion of... 

27 minutes ago, 1Timothy115 said:

Isaiah and look closer at Thessalonians and the Revelation.

There are so many key words in scriptures pointing toward this end time prophecy that I may be listening to Jesus explain it before I satisfy my curiosity.

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Posted (edited)

True Christians will suffer tribulation, be persecuted, be martyred for their faith. This has happened all through history - and even now is happening in some other countries (maybe not much in North America) - so there is no need for true Christians to go through the Great Tribulation (ie. in the sense that “they are not undergoing persecution and tribulation now” - but they are, just not here - and who is to say there won’t be greater tribulation and persecution as this world turns further and further from God and His Word). Also, from several passages, it is clear that the whole seven year tribulation period is a time of God’s wrath. The Lord Jesus Christ has already endured the wrath for our sins and has promised we will not face it. We would be enduring it if we were here during those seven years.

Edited by Jerry
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2 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

Back on topic, I suppose there are no other scripture references which might shed further light on what these "fearful sights" and "great signs" coming "from heaven" might be besides...

 

So, possibly that is the end of the original question...

 

Yes, I will refer back to Isaiah and look closer at Thessalonians and the Revelation. But, I continue to think the answer is here in the 3 synoptic gospels. Thanks folks!

Acts 2

[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
[20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
[21] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Not the synoptic gospels but authored by Luke nonetheless.

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