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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

The Rapture in the Bible

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Yes, I do have that belief; but coupled with it is the fact that in 1Thess. when He comes for us, He in fact "comes". That, to me, is a part of His "coming".

I see. Thank you for your response.

In revelation we see John called up in spirit. Revelation chapter 4 Verse 1-2. With this, what do you say? 
Also, isn’t the second coming specific to the idea of him setting up his kingdom? 
In your view, your leave no room for a 7 year tribulation. And that puzzles me, for that is a requirement in the prophecy to Daniel.
 

Edited by Hugh_Flower
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On 4/19/2021 at 8:33 AM, PastorMatt said:

Thank you for your reply. Like I mentioned in the earlier post I care more about what Scripture says than terminology, that's why I was interested in knowing what event you believe 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is talking about.

Brother, are you saying that this passage is about the "Rapture" of the church? I've heard it preached as that, and I've heard it preached as the Second Advent (Coming) of Christ to the earth. I thought that the rapture was supposed to be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...not loud with the shout and the trump of God. I have studied this subject for years, and I have to say, I know many of both persuasions concerning this passage. I know that in Bible college at Maranatha many of us students who were studying eschatology by ourselves in a study group were ostracized by many, and were literally invaded by some of the college professors to confiscate materials. I had mine taken away and was told if I had any questions about the subject I needed to go to Dr. Cedarholm, Dr. Weeks or to Dr. Hollowood. I was somewhat shaken that a Bible college, a place of learning and study wouldn't want us to study this subject. At that time, many of us were leaning towards a mid-trib/pre-wrath position. I have since become a "whenever it happens it happens" since the Bible says that nobody knows the day or the hour except the Father in heaven. I know that the apostles all believed that the time was near then. Of course, I know that it's closer today than it was then, but I'm still studying the position. Maybe you could open a thread on it and give us a complete doctrinal study on it...just a suggestion. I know you're a busy man. I know what all my doctrinal books from MBBC and Fellowship Baptist College when it was in E. Peoria, IL say. They are all dispensationalist, pre-tribulation positions. But, some of the crossing of the verses into both categories make me question the validity of the position. I'm not saying that I disagree with it, but I am saying that it's a difficult thing to study, and too many positions with Scripture to fit each one! 🙂 Clear as mud, eh? LOL

Blessings.

Bro. T

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Posted (edited)
On 4/20/2021 at 6:06 PM, Ukulelemike said:

I doubt any of our theology on this subject are absolutely correct-the Bible says actually quite a bit, but things like timing, and time periods between events, are very vague. I hold to the post-trib/pre-wrath rapture position, and have quite a few reasons for it, but I'm not dogmatic about it, either, because the Bile doesn't really lay out the timing clearly, so I have never considered it a 'fundamental', timing-wise, nor anything to separate over, though I know some who do separate over the timing of the rapture. 

By the way, I don't hold to it due to any Anderson teachings, as I have never heard his teaching on it.   I think the fact that it WILL occur is abundantly clear, and that it is yet future, but as for much more than that, all we can reasonably do is speculate, maybe strongly, but still, I give myself space to be wrong.

Much of what you've stated I'm beginning to lean toward. Also something you hinted at was a difference between tribulation (or great tribulation) and God's day of wrath. I do believe there is a scriptural difference in the two and it helps me to understand some of the Bible passages. Like you, I'm willing to be wrong on this and I agree with another comment that we won't know for sure until we're with the Lord in glory. It isn't a separation issue for me. I enjoy learning from and learning with others and being like an Acts 17:11 Berean.

 

Edited by 1Timothy115
Forgot a sentence :-)
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14 hours ago, PastorMatt said:

@Jim_Alaska I'm just curious to why you do not use the term "Rapture" to describe the first part of the second coming of Christ. 

No particular reason BroMatt. We were talking about the Rapture so I guess I just got more focused on speaking to the issue of His "coming" and that He would actually come both times.

I have no problem with calling the event in Thess. a Rapture, even though the Bible doesn't call it that.

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7 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

No particular reason BroMatt. We were talking about the Rapture so I guess I just got more focused on speaking to the issue of His "coming" and that He would actually come both times.

I have no problem with calling the event in Thess. a Rapture, even though the Bible doesn't call it that.

Thank you Brother, I see no error in how you view the event in 1 Thess., as the terminology is more of a preferential difference.  If I'm going to use the the the words Trinity and Bible (They are not called those names in the Word of God), then I see no reason why I should not use the word Rapture.  I appreciate your explanation.

13 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Brother, are you saying that this passage is about the "Rapture" of the church?

I am, I believe that is the clearest answer in Scripture. I'm getting ready to start work now so I really cant explain in detail. Hopefully this weekend. Have a great day. 

Like was already mentioned earlier, we all have preferences on this subject, to me the important aspect is the fact that He IS coming back like He promised. 

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Posted (edited)

The difficulty on whether there is a pre, mid or post Trib rapture rests on discerning whether the nation of Israel will be restored as a separate group with the OT promises literally fulfilled to them or if they will just become part of the Church as Jews who get saved do now and all the OT promises have been fulfilled in the Church. I'm always leary of the position that we have replaced Israel.

The Tribulation is a period of Jacob's trouble and the emphasis is on their restoration though many Gentiles will get saved. As I stated before Isaiah 26, that those verses, which in context are about the Tribulation and Second Coming, apply to Israel but I'm not immoveable from this position. 

I'm not so sure about these things as I used to because there are a lot of godly, God fearing, bible believing brethren on all sides of the debate which makes me think we all may be a little right and a little wrong in our positions. From my experience that is usually the case.

One thing is for sure is that our Lord will return, until that time we are to occupy for him, spread the gospel, live holy lives, edify the saints, do good to the unsaved, watch for his return, that we will be "raptured" aka caught up to meet him in the clouds when he does return and that "all Israel shall be saved".

 

Edited by SureWord
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59 minutes ago, SureWord said:

 I'm always leary of the position that we have replaced Israel.

Yep, me too! My Jewish blood component came through a grafting in process. 

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" [Titus 2:13]

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On 4/23/2021 at 6:12 AM, SureWord said:

The difficulty on whether there is a pre, mid or post Trib rapture rests on discerning whether the nation of Israel will be restored as a separate group with the OT promises literally fulfilled to them or if they will just become part of the Church as Jews who get saved do now and all the OT promises have been fulfilled in the Church. I'm always leary of the position that we have replaced Israel.

The Tribulation is a period of Jacob's trouble and the emphasis is on their restoration though many Gentiles will get saved. As I stated before Isaiah 26, that those verses, which in context are about the Tribulation and Second Coming, apply to Israel but I'm not immoveable from this position. 

I'm not so sure about these things as I used to because there are a lot of godly, God fearing, bible believing brethren on all sides of the debate which makes me think we all may be a little right and a little wrong in our positions. From my experience that is usually the case.

One thing is for sure is that our Lord will return, until that time we are to occupy for him, spread the gospel, live holy lives, edify the saints, do good to the unsaved, watch for his return, that we will be "raptured" aka caught up to meet him in the clouds when he does return and that "all Israel shall be saved".

 

Well, Zechariah seems to say that Israel, in general, will be saved when they actually witness Christ return at the end of the falling of God's wrath: those Jews who were born again prior to that will be part of the church, these will, it seems, enter into the kingdom of Christ in the flesh. Jesus referred to them as the virgins awaiting the bridegroom, but not as the bride, itself. I admit that it is somewhat confusing to me exactly what position they will hold-I don't believe the church has taken their place, but of course, I also am not sure that the church is actually the bride, as it is the New Jerusalem we see ascending from heaven adorned as a bride for her Husband. 

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On 4/27/2021 at 9:52 AM, Ukulelemike said:

Well, Zechariah seems to say that Israel, in general, will be saved when they actually witness Christ return at the end of the falling of God's wrath: those Jews who were born again prior to that will be part of the church, these will, it seems, enter into the kingdom of Christ in the flesh. Jesus referred to them as the virgins awaiting the bridegroom, but not as the bride, itself. I admit that it is somewhat confusing to me exactly what position they will hold-I don't believe the church has taken their place, but of course, I also am not sure that the church is actually the bride, as it is the New Jerusalem we see ascending from heaven adorned as a bride for her Husband. 

The Church does not take the place of Israel, covenant theology is heresy. Not all Jews will be saved either, only 144,000 during the tribulation 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

The Church does not take the place of Israel, covenant theology is heresy. Not all Jews will be saved either, only 144,000 during the tribulation 

 

 

1: I never said the church has taken the place of Israel-they remain in their place.

2: never said all Jews will be saved, however, more than the 144,000 will be saved. After all, who do you think they are witnessing to? As well, the events of Zechariah tell a different story, in that Jesus will return bodily to Jerusalem and those alive in the city will believe and be saved. 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

1: I never said the church has taken the place of Israel-they remain in their place.

2: never said all Jews will be saved, however, more than the 144,000 will be saved. After all, who do you think they are witnessing to? As well, the events of Zechariah tell a different story, in that Jesus will return bodily to Jerusalem and those alive in the city will believe and be saved. 

 

I know you weren’t. The 144,000 are witnessing the Lord to the world, how ever only 144,000 of the Jews will be believers. I believe the others will die away as unbelievers before Jesus returns to Jerusalem.

( also where does it say ALL of Israel will be believers ? Not all of Israel is even Jewish at this time) 

Edited by Hugh_Flower
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6 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Romans 11:26 (KJV) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All means all, and that is all that all means.

I can't agree this is the sense of this one scripture, alone by itself.  I believe 1 Corinthians 1:21-25 and Romans 10:1-4 are to the contrary.  

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. [Matthew 10:33] Far too many Jews denied Christ. 

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [Romans 11:17-21] emphasis added

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It is true that Israel past and present denied Him. But the Scripture I posted speaks to the future coming of Christ, when not only all Israel, but all the world will see him.

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Another Scripture with the word "all" in it. this would include Israel. Israel will at that time realize that He was The Christ that they denied. "and they also which pierced him"  And so, all Israel will be saved.

The Scripture in Romans that I posted is not my interpretation; it is what Scripture says.

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9 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

I know you weren’t. The 144,000 are witnessing the Lord to the world, how ever only 144,000 of the Jews will be believers. I believe the others will die away as unbelievers before Jesus returns to Jerusalem.

( also where does it say ALL of Israel will be believers ? Not all of Israel is even Jewish at this time) 

The 144,000 are those who are sealed. There will be other Jews who get saved. If it were only the 144,000 there would be no women Jewish women or children saved.

"All Israel shall be saved," is the remnant. The true "Israel of God". 

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2 hours ago, SureWord said:

The 144,000 are those who are sealed. There will be other Jews who get saved. If it were only the 144,000 there would be no women Jewish women or children saved.

"All Israel shall be saved," is the remnant. The true "Israel of God". 

That makes sense. I am wrong! 
 ( but I do still not think ALL Jews at this time will be saved ) 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Hugh_Flower said:

That makes sense. I am wrong! 
 ( but I do still not think ALL Jews at this time will be saved ) 

Yes, you are correct. "All Israel" refers to the remnant. Remember, Jesus said to the Pharisees that God could raise up children of Abraham from the stones indicating that being a Hebrew doesn't equal being a child of God. 

Edited by SureWord
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12 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

I know you weren’t. The 144,000 are witnessing the Lord to the world, how ever only 144,000 of the Jews will be believers. I believe the others will die away as unbelievers before Jesus returns to Jerusalem.

( also where does it say ALL of Israel will be believers ? Not all of Israel is even Jewish at this time) 

Zechariah 14:

"1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee."

Clearly, this is speaking of Jerusalem and Judah, and speaks of those if Israel that will be currently living in and defending it from the armies of the earth.

Zechariah 12: 

7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Again, clearly here speaking of the return of Christ to Jerusalem and the saving of the "House of David", and them receiving the "spirit of grace and supplication". Sounds like they'll be saved.

Today the Israel we see is not, clearly, just Israel, though many area, and from many of the tribes. Today they are the valley of dry bones, with flesh, but without yet the Spirit of life breathed into them-that will happen when Christ returns, as seen in the verses above. 

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