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3 minutes ago, Baptistsenior said:

we are constantly told that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will cease when the Bible comes based on this statement in the Bible 'But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away

but how do we know this refers to the Bible and not Jesus' return 

It doesn't refer to the bible it refers to the time we see our Lord "face to face". I Cor. 13:12 There won't be any need for the bible either anymore.

Whenever in doubt go to the context of the scripture.

I'm not sure why tongues and other sign gifts have ceased. One theory is that these things were a sign for the early Jews but since God has turned primarily to the Gentiles and the Gentiles seek wisdom (I Cor. 1:22) that the sign gifts have ceased. They seem to have ceased when Paul turned away from them one last time in Acts 28 and with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

Im really not sure why they stopped I have my thoughts on it but really can't prove it from scripture only by showing a pattern of God's dealings during different dispensations especially early on.

It's possible tongues and healing will return during the Tribulation since we know that prophecy will. 

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6 minutes ago, SureWord said:

It doesn't refer to the bible it refers to the time we see our Lord "face to face". I Cor. 13:12 There won't be any need for the bible either anymore.

Whenever in doubt go to the context of the scripture.

I'm not sure why tongues and other sign gifts have ceased. One theory is that these things were a sign for the early Jews but since God has turned primarily to the Gentiles and the Gentiles seek wisdom (I Cor. 1:22) that the sign gifts have ceased. They seem to have ceased when Paul turned away from them one last time in Acts 28 and with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

Im really not sure why they stopped I have my thoughts on it but really can't prove it from scripture only by showing a pattern of God's dealings during different dispensations especially early on.

It's possible tongues and healing will return during the Tribulation since we know that prophecy will. 

We've always been told they ceased, but how do we know that?  Sometimes I wonder if Baptists miss out on alot of things God meant for us because we are afraid to be like chrismatics.  Same with healing etc 

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3 minutes ago, Baptistsenior said:

We've always been told they ceased, but how do we know that?  Sometimes I wonder if Baptists miss out on alot of things God meant for us because we are afraid to be like chrismatics.  Same with healing etc 

The gobbledygook you hear in Charismatic churches are not the tongues of the early church. In fact, the pagans and oracles of the Greeks had the same gibberish before Christ even showed up. Shamans, Catholics, Wiccans and Mormons carry on with it to this day.

As far as healing or raising people back to life I wouldn't trust any of it. Like I said it seems to be associated with Jews and the temple. When the temple is rebuilt and the 144k preach these things may return but Satan will mimic it like Joanne's and Jambres mimicked Moses. 

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41 minutes ago, SureWord said:

The gobbledygook you hear in Charismatic churches are not the tongues of the early church. In fact, the pagans and oracles of the Greeks had the same gibberish before Christ even showed up. Shamans, Catholics, Wiccans and Mormons carry on with it to this day.

As far as healing or raising people back to life I wouldn't trust any of it. Like I said it seems to be associated with Jews and the temple. When the temple is rebuilt and the 144k preach these things may return but Satan will mimic it like Joanne's and Jambres mimicked Moses. 

I realize that the tongues back then was just normal languages, not the jibberish of today.  I also don't believe in raising people from the dead (although Jack Hyles claimed he did that), I also don't believe in healings the way the apostles did them, but what about the way the early church was instructed to deal with the sick?  It seems we leave out alot of things the early church did  

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It would seen that graduation day has come and those things are no longer needed; but  love is now the order of the day. This is what Paul called "a more excellent way".

1Co 12:28 (KJV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

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3 hours ago, Baptistsenior said:

we are constantly told that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge will cease when the Bible comes based on this statement in the Bible 'But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away

but how do we know this refers to the Bible and not Jesus' return 

We know this has to do with God's completed word, and not the coming of Christ, because, 

1: Jesus had already come, and if it referred to Jesus, surely it would say, "He that is perfect is come again"

and

2: Because the scripture, in context, has to do with the supernatural receiving/giving of God's words, through prophecy, tongues and (supernatural) knowledge, or revelation. This is how the Lord gave His word, from Genesis to Revelation-so, in that context, the things we know only in part, (at that time, the word not yet being complete, and only incomplete parts given at any one time), so when that which is perfect, in context, God's completed revelation of his word, was come, there is no longer any need for those partial revelations and prophecies, therefore they would cease.

Context, context, context!

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4 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

We know this has to do with God's completed word, and not the coming of Christ, because, 

1: Jesus had already come, and if it referred to Jesus, surely it would say, "He that is perfect is come again"

and

2: Because the scripture, in context, has to do with the supernatural receiving/giving of God's words, through prophecy, tongues and (supernatural) knowledge, or revelation. This is how the Lord gave His word, from Genesis to Revelation-so, in that context, the things we know only in part, (at that time, the word not yet being complete, and only incomplete parts given at any one time), so when that which is perfect, in context, God's completed revelation of his word, was come, there is no longer any need for those partial revelations and prophecies, therefore they would cease.

Context, context, context!

Why would it have to say "that which is perfect is come again"? That's not necessary.

I Cor. 1:7- So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That verse does not say "waiting for the second coming" or "coming again of our Lord".

Even with the bible we still only see him through a glass darkly (II Cor. 3:18) There's no way we presently  know him "face to face" through the bible. That's clearly a reference to being in the literal, physical presence of the Lord. REV. 22:4

"...but then shall I know even as also I am known."

It's not necessarily referring to the Second Coming but our going to be with the Lord and having perfect love, fellowship and knowledge of him in his presence.

6 hours ago, Baptistsenior said:

I realize that the tongues back then was just normal languages, not the jibberish of today.  I also don't believe in raising people from the dead (although Jack Hyles claimed he did that), I also don't believe in healings the way the apostles did them, but what about the way the early church was instructed to deal with the sick?  It seems we leave out alot of things the early church did  

I believe some churches still pray and amount the sick. Also, I went to a friend's ordination where they did laying on of the hands. But I'm not sure if healing by laying on of hands. It seems from scripture that faded out also once the Book of Acts came to a close. I'm not sure why but my guess is it had to do with the nation of Israel being shelved for the next almost two thousand years. 

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5 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

It would seen that graduation day has come and those things are no longer needed; but  love is now the order of the day. This what Paul called "a more excellent way".

1Co 12:28 (KJV) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Yes, Paul could be referring to charity as that which is perfect ("charity which is the bond of perfectness") and that perfection will be realized fully in the presence of the Lord.

I've heard the explanation also that the sign gifts went out with the apostles and to have been an apostle you had to literally spend time with the Lord. Some exceptions were made like with Paul who is essence did spend time with the Lord when he received the Revelation of the mystery while he was in Arabia.

Today we are in the era of pastors and teachers.

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If the perfect is not the completed revelation of Gods Word, then these gifts should surely be more obviously apparent among Christian churches. 

Most of what I hear is charismatic or Pentecostal emotionalism, with little reliance on the Word.

But in regards to seeing 'face to face' ..

 

The bible is like a mirror to us. It shows who we truly are by its teachings, inspired by God. 

Also the 1 corinthians 13 context is about incomplete to complete , partial to whole, progressing to finishing. 

So whatever is perfect , was incomplete, partial, progressing when Paul was writing to the church at Corinth.

Jesus doesn't really fit here. 

 

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19 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

We know this has to do with God's completed word, and not the coming of Christ, because, 

1: Jesus had already come, and if it referred to Jesus, surely it would say, "He that is perfect is come again"

and

2: Because the scripture, in context, has to do with the supernatural receiving/giving of God's words, through prophecy, tongues and (supernatural) knowledge, or revelation. This is how the Lord gave His word, from Genesis to Revelation-so, in that context, the things we know only in part, (at that time, the word not yet being complete, and only incomplete parts given at any one time), so when that which is perfect, in context, God's completed revelation of his word, was come, there is no longer any need for those partial revelations and prophecies, therefore they would cease.

Context, context, context!

I can accept #2 but #1 is a little suspect in my mind. Too many references to future events without any need for an "again."

 

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15 hours ago, SureWord said:

Why would it have to say "that which is perfect is come again"? That's not necessary.

I Cor. 1:7- So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That verse does not say "waiting for the second coming" or "coming again of our Lord".

Even with the bible we still only see him through a glass darkly (II Cor. 3:18) There's no way we presently  know him "face to face" through the bible. That's clearly a reference to being in the literal, physical presence of the Lord. REV. 22:4

"...but then shall I know even as also I am known."

It's not necessarily referring to the Second Coming but our going to be with the Lord and having perfect love, fellowship and knowledge of him in his presence.

I believe some churches still pray and amount the sick. Also, I went to a friend's ordination where they did laying on of the hands. But I'm not sure if healing by laying on of hands. It seems from scripture that faded out also once the Book of Acts came to a close. I'm not sure why but my guess is it had to do with the nation of Israel being shelved for the next almost two thousand years. 

I agree the correlation of 1 Cor. 1:7, 2 Cor. 3:18 are spot on. As far as annoiting with oil, yes some do it, and it is Biblical. As far as the laying on of hands during an ordaining, our church does it and of course we have the example of Saul and Barnabus in Acts by the Church of Antioch [Acts 13:2-3].

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20 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

We know this has to do with God's completed word, and not the coming of Christ, because, 

1: Jesus had already come, and if it referred to Jesus, surely it would say, "He that is perfect is come again"

and

2: Because the scripture, in context, has to do with the supernatural receiving/giving of God's words, through prophecy, tongues and (supernatural) knowledge, or revelation. This is how the Lord gave His word, from Genesis to Revelation-so, in that context, the things we know only in part, (at that time, the word not yet being complete, and only incomplete parts given at any one time), so when that which is perfect, in context, God's completed revelation of his word, was come, there is no longer any need for those partial revelations and prophecies, therefore they would cease.

Context, context, context!

That sure makes sense.  Thanks 

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15 hours ago, SureWord said:

Why would it have to say "that which is perfect is come again"? That's not necessary.

I Cor. 1:7- So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That verse does not say "waiting for the second coming" or "coming again of our Lord".

Even with the bible we still only see him through a glass darkly (II Cor. 3:18) There's no way we presently  know him "face to face" through the bible. That's clearly a reference to being in the literal, physical presence of the Lord. REV. 22:4

"...but then shall I know even as also I am known."

It's not necessarily referring to the Second Coming but our going to be with the Lord and having perfect love, fellowship and knowledge of him in his presence.

I believe some churches still pray and amount the sick. Also, I went to a friend's ordination where they did laying on of the hands. But I'm not sure if healing by laying on of hands. It seems from scripture that faded out also once the Book of Acts came to a close. I'm not sure why but my guess is it had to do with the nation of Israel being shelved for the next almost two thousand years. 

And this makes sense too.  I guess it's all a matter of what we choose to believe. 

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20 hours ago, SureWord said:

Why would it have to say "that which is perfect is come again"? That's not necessary.

I Cor. 1:7- So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That verse does not say "waiting for the second coming" or "coming again of our Lord".

Even with the bible we still only see him through a glass darkly (II Cor. 3:18) There's no way we presently  know him "face to face" through the bible. That's clearly a reference to being in the literal, physical presence of the Lord. REV. 22:4

"...but then shall I know even as also I am known."

It's not necessarily referring to the Second Coming but our going to be with the Lord and having perfect love, fellowship and knowledge of him in his presence.

I believe some churches still pray and amount the sick. Also, I went to a friend's ordination where they did laying on of the hands. But I'm not sure if healing by laying on of hands. It seems from scripture that faded out also once the Book of Acts came to a close. I'm not sure why but my guess is it had to do with the nation of Israel being shelved for the next almost two thousand years. 

My primary response was part 2, context. The context is clearly the giving of God's word. Yes, #1 was shaky, at best, and I considered erasing it, but there it is. Ignore it, look at #2

5 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

I can accept #2 but #1 is a little suspect in my mind. Too many references to future events without any need for an "again."

 

Yes, as I said above, I agree it was a bit, or a lot, shaky. Stick with #2.

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For those who are willing to consider Greek grammar in their study of the Scriptures, in the Greek the words "that which" from the phrase, "that which is perfect," of 1 Corinthians 13:10 translates a neuter pronoun.  Whereas, if the phrase was a reference unto the coming of Jesus Christ, the perfect One, we would expect the phrase to be a masculine pronoun, such that it would read, "He which is perfect," rather than "that which is perfect."

Concerning the terminology in the opening portion of 1 Corinthians 13:12, the word "darkly" is translated from the Greek prepositional phrase, "en ainigmati."  Herein the meaning of the Greek preposition "en" is "in;" and the meaning of the Greek noun "ainigma" is "a riddle, an enigma, an obsure thing, something perceived dimly."  Thus in a literal manner the opening portion of 1 Corinthians 13:12 would read, "For now we see through a glass [mirror] in a riddle [in an obscure manner], but then face to face."  Even so, we may understand that the phrase, "face to face," is a direct contrast to the preposition phrase, "in a riddle/obscure manner;" and thus we may understand that the phrase, "face to face," is contextually intended to communicate the idea of "openly," in contrast to the idea of "obscurely." 

Yet we would still have the question as to how much of the grammatical construction is to be grammatically carried over, and how much is presented as the actual contrast.  Certainly the subject and verb of the sentence are grammatically to be carried over, as follows: "For now we see through a glass [mirror] darkly [in a riddle/obscure manner], but then [we shall see] face to face."  However, is the prepositional phrase, "through a glass," also to be carried over; or is it a part of the contrast?  Are we to understand the statement as follows: "For now we see through a glass [mirror] darkly [in a riddle/obscure manner], but then [we shall see through a glass/mirror] face to face."  In this case we are still seeing through a mirror, but the mirror is providing a more clear image of our face, so that we do not see our face obscured, but we see our face in full and clear display.  Or are we to understand the statement as follows: "For now we see through a glass [mirror] darkly [in a riddle/obscure manner], but then [we shall see] face to face."  In this case we are no longer seeing through a mirror at all, but are now seeing another individual in a direct "face to face" manner.  In the first case what we are seeing, obscurely at first, then openly to follow, is our own face (?our own spiritual condition).  In the second case what we are seeing, obscurely at first, then openly and very personally to follow, is the face of another (?Jesus the Christ at His coming).  

So then, are there any other passages of the New Testament that might guide us in this matter.  Well, 2 Corinthians 3:18 seems to illustrate God's Word as a glass/mirror; and it indicates that the image which we see through the mirror of God's Word is "the glory of the Lord" (our Lord Jesus Christ).  Yet 2 Corinthians 3:18 also indicates that we see "the glory of the Lord" through the mirror of God's Word "openly" (literally - "with uncovered face").  Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 3:18 employs a different Greek word for "glass/mirror" than does 1 Corinthians 13:12.  Thus we may have some question as to whether 2 Corinthians 3:18 is an appropriate Scriptural comparative with 1 Corinthians 13:12.  Yet there is another passage of the New Testament that seems to illustrate God's Word as a glass/mirror.  That passage is James 1:21-25.  Within this passage the Greek word for "glass/mirror" (see verse 23) is the same as that which is employed in 1 Corinthians 13:12; and it indicates that the image which we see through the mirror of God's Word is ourselves (our own true spiritual condition).  In addition, James 1:25 does refer to God's Word as "the perfect law of liberty," employing the same Greek word for "perfect" as is found in 1 Corinthians 13:12.

As for myself (at the present time), I hold that 1 Corinthians 13:12 is talking about the perfecting/completion of the Holy Scriptures, and that the phrase "face to face" refers unto our ability to see our own spiritual condition openly/clearly through the completed Scriptures (as per James 1:21-25).  

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar
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On 2/12/2021 at 1:41 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

For those who are willing to consider Greek grammar in their study of the Scriptures, in the Greek the words "that which" from the phrase, "that which is perfect," of 1 Corinthians 13:10 translates a neuter pronoun.  Whereas, if the phrase was a reference unto the coming of Jesus Christ, the perfect One, we would expect the phrase to be a masculine pronoun, such that it would read, "He which is perfect," rather than "that which is perfect."

Concerning the terminology in the opening portion of 1 Corinthians 13:12, the word "darkly" is translated from the Greek prepositional phrase, "en ainigmati."  Herein the meaning of the Greek preposition "en" is "in;" and the meaning of the Greek noun "ainigma" is "a riddle, an enigma, an obsure thing, something perceived dimly."  Thus in a literal manner the opening portion of 1 Corinthians 13:12 would read, "For now we see through a glass [mirror] in a riddle [in an obscure manner], but then face to face."  Even so, we may understand that the phrase, "face to face," is a direct contrast to the preposition phrase, "in a riddle/obscure manner;" and thus we may understand that the phrase, "face to face," is contextually intended to communicate the idea of "openly," in contrast to the idea of "obscurely." 

Yet we would still have the question as to how much of the grammatical construction is to be grammatically carried over, and how much is presented as the actual contrast.  Certainly the subject and verb of the sentence are grammatically to be carried over, as follows: "For now we see through a glass [mirror] darkly [in a riddle/obscure manner], but then [we shall see] face to face."  However, is the prepositional phrase, "through a glass," also to be carried over; or is it a part of the contrast?  Are we to understand the statement as follows: "For now we see through a glass [mirror] darkly [in a riddle/obscure manner], but then [we shall see through a glass/mirror] face to face."  In this case we are still seeing through a mirror, but the mirror is providing a more clear image of our face, so that we do not see our face obscured, but we see our face in full and clear display.  Or are we to understand the statement as follows: "For now we see through a glass [mirror] darkly [in a riddle/obscure manner], but then [we shall see] face to face."  In this case we are no longer seeing through a mirror at all, but are now seeing another individual in a direct "face to face" manner.  In the first case what we are seeing, obscurely at first, then openly to follow, is our own face (?our own spiritual condition).  In the second case what we are seeing, obscurely at first, then openly and very personally to follow, is the face of another (?Jesus the Christ at His coming).  

So then, are there any other passages of the New Testament that might guide us in this matter.  Well, 2 Corinthians 3:18 seems to illustrate God's Word as a glass/mirror; and it indicates that the image which we see through the mirror of God's Word is "the glory of the Lord" (our Lord Jesus Christ).  Yet 2 Corinthians 3:18 also indicates that we see "the glory of the Lord" through the mirror of God's Word "openly" (literally - "with uncovered face").  Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 3:18 employs a different Greek word for "glass/mirror" than does 1 Corinthians 13:12.  Thus we may have some question as to whether 2 Corinthians 3:18 is an appropriate Scriptural comparative with 1 Corinthians 13:12.  Yet there is another passage of the New Testament that seems to illustrate God's Word as a glass/mirror.  That passage is James 1:21-25.  Within this passage the Greek word for "glass/mirror" (see verse 23) is the same as that which is employed in 1 Corinthians 13:12; and it indicates that the image which we see through the mirror of God's Word is ourselves (our own true spiritual condition).  In addition, James 1:25 does refer to God's Word as "the perfect law of liberty," employing the same Greek word for "perfect" as is found in 1 Corinthians 13:12.

As for myself (at the present time), I hold that 1 Corinthians 13:12 is talking about the perfecting/completion of the Holy Scriptures, and that the phrase "face to face" refers unto our ability to see our own spiritual condition openly/clearly through the completed Scriptures (as per James 1:21-25).  

[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
[16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph. 4:11-16

[14] And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Col. 3:14

Maybe it's all three Paul's referring to:

1) Charity.

2) Presence of the Lord via the completion of the body of Christ

3) Bible.

Key words in those passages and comparing it with I Cor. 13 could suggest all three. 

Charity is the bond of "perfectness". Paul spent the whole passage speaking of charity. Charity will be the one thing out of the three (faith, hope, charity) we'll have for all eternity.

"Grow up in him in all things" and "till we all come into the unity of faith....a perfect man unto the measure of the stature" that could be what Paul was referring to when he said "put away childish things...became a man" in I Cor 13. Of course, the body of Christ will be fully matured in stature when it is completed in heaven in God's presence and charity will be perfected.

"Doctrine"..."speaking the truth in love" in Eph. 4:14,15 could be a reference to the bible. A completed bible to keep us from being tossed to and fro.

The whole passage of Eph. 4 is in the context of the gifts of God too as is I Cor.13.

Just some observations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by SureWord
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