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Thoughts about an update to the KJV?

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Would you use a simple accurate KJV update?  

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  1. 1. Would you use a simple accurate KJV update?

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13 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

With all due respect it is doubtful that either of us will change the other's mind on this matter. 

Hi Pastor, I think we both agree that the natural man means non-believers.  And we both agree that these natural men are not spiritual people.  We just have a different understanding of which non-believers.  May God be glorified.  Thanks for the discussion.  I wish you the best.  This has gotten way off topic.  🙂  

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14 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

"the things of the Spirit of God" from verse 14. 

I also disagree with your limiting of this phrase "the things of the Spirit of God" in verse 14. 

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

It is plainly very general and not at all limited by verse 13 and preceding, for it says:  "the things."  Natural people who reject all spiritual things do not receive the things of God's Spirit generally, not just the things you limit it to mean.  That's what it says and means.  Scripture can narrowly use the word "things" in one verse and use it generally in the next.  I think you need to reconsider your ideas of contextualization.

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19 hours ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

So are you saying all non-believers can never receive the wisdom of God, the things that are freely given to believers?  They can and do receive these things as they seek God, hear about these things, and then become believers.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
 

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1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
 

Those verses do not mean all non-believers can never receive the wisdom of God.  Of course some non-believers become believers and receive the wisdom of God.  In fact, the gospel is the wisdom of God in Christ.

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4 hours ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

I think you need to reconsider your ideas of contextualization.

Brother "BibleBeliever,"

I believe that with the above comment we find the foundational reason for our disagreement.  It appears that we each have a significantly different viewpoint concerning the importance of context in Bible study.

_________________________________________

4 hours ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

I also disagree with your limiting of this phrase "the things of the Spirit of God" in verse 14. 

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

It is plainly very general and not at all limited by verse 13 and preceding, for it says:  "the things."  Natural people who reject all spiritual things do not receive the things of God's Spirit generally, not just the things you limit it to mean.  That's what it says and means.  Scripture can narrowly use the word "things" in one verse and use it generally in the next.  

Again for the sake of the audience, concerning the usage of "things" throughout the context of 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, we find the following phrases --

1.  In verse 9, "The things which God hath prepared for them that love him."
2.  In verse 10, "For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea the deep things of God."
3.  In verse 11a, "The things of a man."
4.  In verse 11b, "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."
5.  In verse 12, "That we may know the things that are freely given to us of God."
6.  In verse 13a, "Which things also we speak."
7.  In verse 13c, "Comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
8.  In verse 14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God."
9.  In verse 15, "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things."

Now, what has been proposed is that we should separate "the thing of the Spirit of God" in verse 14 from all of the previous references to "the things of God" throughout the preceding context.  Yet in verse 14 "the things" is modified by the phrase "of the Spirit of God."  So then we may ask -- Is the Spirit of God at all referenced in the preceding context?  Answer -- Yes, the Spirit of God IS so referenced starting in verse 10.  

1.  Verse 10, "But God hath revealed them [that is -- "the things which God hath prepared for them that love him" from verse 9] unto us [believers] by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea the deep things of God."
2.  Verse 11b, "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."  
3.  Verse 12, "Now we [believers] have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; [Why?] that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."
4.  Verse 13, "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
5.  Verse 14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually [of the Spirit] discerned."
6.  Verse 15, "But he that is spiritual [of the Spirit] judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

Even so, the above proposal not only requires us to separate "the things of the Spirit of God" in verse 14 from all of the previous references to "the things of God" throughout the preceding context, but also requires us to separate the reference to "the Spirit of God" in verse 14 from all of the previous references throughout the preceding context.  Furthermore, it requires us to separate the two "spiritually/spiritual" references of verses 14 & 15 from the references to the Holy Spirit throughout the preceding context. 

So, what do we learn about the "work" of the Holy Spirit from this context?  We learn from verse 10 that the things which God has prepared for us believers, He has specifically revealed to us by his spirit.  Even so, those who do not yet have the Spirit of God would not yet have these things revealed to them.  We also learn from verse 10 that it is the Spirit of God who searches out "the deep things of God;" and we further learn from verse 11 that no man can search out these "things of God," but the Spirit of God only.  Even so, we understand that apart from the guidance of the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible for any of us to know "the things of God."  However, we learn from verse 12 that we believers have indeed received "the spirit which is of God," and that we have received Him to dwell within us specifically "that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."  Even so, we may understand that until an individual has received the indwelling Holy Spirit, that individual would NOT be able to know "the things of God."  In fact, that is precisely what verse 14 teaches -- The "natural man" is the one who has not yet received the indwelling Holy Spirit.  Because he has not yet received the Spirit, he does not receive "the things of the Spirit of God."  Rather, he finds those things to be foolishness.  In fact, he cannot even know those things because those things require spiritual discernment; and having not yet received the indwelling Holy Spirit, the "natural man" does not possess the spiritual discernment that the indwelling Holy Spirit would provide.  On the other hand, "he that is spiritual" (v. 15) is one who has received the indwelling Holy Spirit.  As such, he is able to judge all things, specifically because the Holy Spirit that dwells within him searches all things, even "the deep things of God."

Indeed, as we consider these things throughout the context, let us also take note of the three references to knowledge within the context.  In the closing portion of verse 11, we are told, "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."  Then in verse 12 we are told, "Now we [believers] have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; [Why?] that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."  Finally, in verse 14 we are told, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."  Indeed, NO one has this knowledge on his or her own, but the Spirit of God ONLY.  Yet we believers have received the Spirit of God specifically so that we can have this knowledge.  However, the "natural man" [the unbeliever] cannot have this knowledge, specifically because he or she has not yet received the indwelling Holy Spirit.

______________________________________

However, the accusation will remain from the other side that I am too concerned about the context in my Bible study.  As for me -- Context, Context, Context (that is -- grammatical context, immediate context, Biblical context).

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Now, what has been proposed is that we should separate "the thing of the Spirit of God" in verse 14 from all of the previous references to "the things of God" throughout the preceding context. 

That is not what I have stated.  I have already said the context of verse 10 and 11 show the generality of "things."  Of course context matters.  But in this case, it is not a constraining context as you claim.

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8 minutes ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

That is not what I have stated.  I have already said the context of verse 10 and 11 show the generality of "things."  Of course context matters.  But in this case, it is not a constraining context as you claim.

Hmmm. The following is what you said --

6 hours ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

I also disagree with your limiting of this phrase "the things of the Spirit of God" in verse 14. 

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

It is plainly very general and not at all limited by verse 13 and preceding, for it says:  "the things."  Natural people who reject all spiritual things do not receive the things of God's Spirit generally, not just the things you limit it to mean.  That's what it says and means.  Scripture can narrowly use the word "things" in one verse and use it generally in the next.  I think you need to reconsider your ideas of contextualization. (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

So, if you you actually believe that the references to "the things" in verse 14 is contextually connected to "the things" in verses 10-11, let us consider how "the things" are presented in verses 10-11.  

1.  In the opening portion of verse 10, we learn that God has revealed them ("the things which God hath prepared for them that love him" from verse 9) unto us believers specifically by His Spirit.  (Note: This grammatical construction indicates that we should not contextually separate the statement of verse 10 from the statement of verse 9.)

2.  In the closing portion of verse 10, we learn the reason why God has revealed these things unto us believers by His Spirit.  He has done so because it is the Spirit who specifically searches "all things, yea the deep things of God."

3.  In the closing portion of verse 11, the reason from the closing portion of verse 10 is substantiated more firmly.  Indeed, we learn that NO man knows "the things of God," but the Spirit of God only.  Thus (as I presented in my previous posting) we learn that it is impossible for any of us to know "the things of God" apart from the Holy Spirit's guidance.

4.  So, does that which follows in verse 12 help us to understand who actually possesses the Spirit of God?  Indeed, it does; for in the opening portion of verse 12, we learn that we believers have indeed "received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God."  Furthermore, in the closing portion of verse 12, we learn that we believers have received the Spirit of God, specifically "that we might know the things that are freely given to us [believers] of God."  (Note: By this doctrinal progression in the context, we further recognize that the statement of verse 12 should not be contextually separated from the statements of verses 9-11.)

But that leaves open the doctrinal question -- What about those individuals (unbelievers) who have not yet received the indwelling Holy Spirit of God?  1 Corinthians 2:14 contextually answers the question.

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2 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Hmmm. The following is what you said --

So, if you you actually believe that the references to "the things" in verse 14 is contextually connected to "the things" in verses 10-11, let us consider how "the things" are presented in verses 10-11.  

1.  In the opening portion of verse 10, we learn that God has revealed them ("the things which God hath prepared for them that love him" from verse 9) unto us believers specifically by His Spirit.  (Note: This grammatical construction indicates that we should not contextually separate the statement of verse 10 from the statement of verse 9.)

2.  In the closing portion of verse 10, we learn the reason why God has revealed these things unto us believers by His Spirit.  He has done so because it is the Spirit who specifically searches "all things, yea the deep things of God."

3.  In the closing portion of verse 11, the reason from the closing portion of verse 10 is substantiated more firmly.  Indeed, we learn that NO man knows "the things of God," but the Spirit of God only.  Thus (as I presented in my previous posting) we learn that it is impossible for any of us to know "the things of God" apart from the Holy Spirit's guidance.

4.  So, does that which follows in verse 12 help us to understand who actually possesses the Spirit of God?  Indeed, it does; for in the opening portion of verse 12, we learn that we believers have indeed "received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God."  Furthermore, in the closing portion of verse 12, we learn that we believers have received the Spirit of God, specifically "that we might know the things that are freely given to us [believers] of God."  (Note: By this doctrinal progression in the context, we further recognize that the statement of verse 12 should not be contextually separated from the statements of verses 9-11.)

But that leaves open the doctrinal question -- What about those individuals (unbelievers) who have not yet received the indwelling Holy Spirit of God?  1 Corinthians 2:14 contextually answers the question.

Thank you for your time Pastor.  I think I have already made my interpretation clear.  There's no need to keep saying the same thing.  May God be glorified.  Have a blessed day!

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6 hours ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

Those verses do not mean all non-believers can never receive the wisdom of God.  Of course some non-believers become believers and receive the wisdom of God.  In fact, the gospel is the wisdom of God in Christ.

It is simply amazing that someone with a screen name of BibleBeliever would see nothing contradictory in engaging members on a message forum and asserting that the Bible does not say what it clearly does say.

I posted the verses above to show beyond a shadow of a doubt, that in opposition to your assertion that unbelievers "can and do receive these things as they seek God", that there simply are no unbelievers that seek after God. God's Holy Spirt, the author of all Scripture, makes this fact clear to all by reaffirming that what was written in Romans 3:11 is further reinforced by Romans 3:12. Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Using just a bit of logic it would of necessity follow, that if there are no unbelievers that seek after God, as Scripture affirms, then there cannot possibly be any unbelievers that receive the wisdom of God.

You further try to bolster your argument by asserting that they, (unbelievers) "hear about these things, and then become believers." So then, it is only at the point of becoming believers that the former unbeliever can receive the wisdom of God. (he is no longer an unbeliever)

It all seems perfectly clear to me and anyone that believes, that the Bible means what it says and says what it means.

It is also clear that no revision is needed simply because believers have the capacity, in the form of the Holy Spirit, to understand what is written. And in direct opposition to the preceding sentence, unbelievers do not and cannot understand spiritual things.

1Co 2:14 KJV But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

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4 minutes ago, SureWord said:

"Besom of destruction" (Isaiah 14:23)

My take on this "archaic" word. According to etymonline .com the word broom was in use 300 years before the KJV translators chose the word "besom". As I see it the word "besom" (a type of broom) fits the passage better since a "besom" is traditional associated with the occult and witchcraft (even to this day among Wiccans) and the context of the passage has to do with Satan himself as well as probably the future beast of Revelation.

Brother "SureWord,"

That is a valuable point to consider why the original translators chose the word "besom" in that context, rather than the word "broom."  Whatever their reasoning may have been (if we are able to discern it) is worthy of consideration whether the word "besom" is more significant for the context than the word "broom."

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56 minutes ago, SureWord said:

I always enjoy looking up words I've never heard before. 

I appreciate your comments and I think they show the right spirit in which most faithful King James Bible users approach the scriptures. 

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10 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

It is simply amazing that someone with a screen name of BibleBeliever would see nothing contradictory in engaging members on a message forum and asserting that the Bible does not say what it clearly does say.

I posted the verses above to show beyond a shadow of a doubt, that in opposition to your assertion that unbelievers "can and do receive these things as they seek God", that there simply are no unbelievers that seek after God. God's Holy Spirt, the author of all Scripture, makes this fact clear to all by reaffirming that what was written in Romans 3:11 is further reinforced by Romans 3:12. Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Using just a bit of logic it would of necessity follow, that if there are no unbelievers that seek after God, as Scripture affirms, then there cannot possibly be any unbelievers that receive the wisdom of God.

You further try to bolster your argument by asserting that they, (unbelievers) "hear about these things, and then become believers." So then, it is only at the point of becoming believers that the former unbeliever can receive the wisdom of God. (he is no longer an unbeliever)

It all seems perfectly clear to me and anyone that believes, that the Bible means what it says and says what it means.

It is also clear that no revision is needed simply because believers have the capacity, in the form of the Holy Spirit, to understand what is written. And in direct opposition to the preceding sentence, unbelievers do not and cannot understand spiritual things.

1Co 2:14 KJV But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

I think you are misunderstanding Scripture and not using good logic.  Have a blessed week!

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The natural man is the unregenernated man. Scripture is pretty clear on this. 

The word of God was given to believers not unbelievers (just as the law was given to Jews not Gentiles). The gospel goes out to the lost but first the message was given to the church. This is all that God has to personally say to the lost, i.e. "This is my beloved Son, hear ye him". Anything that unregenernated sinners may read and understand, usually through the writings of Christians and not the bible itself, is solely because of the revelations of God given to his church. Even the angels had to be revealed some truth from God via his church (Eph. 3:10)

There is nothing complicated about this unless you want it to be because you cannot admit you are wrong.

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26 minutes ago, SureWord said:

The natural man is the unregenernated man. Scripture is pretty clear on this. 

The word of God was given to believers not unbelievers (just as the law was given to Jews not Gentiles). The gospel goes out to the lost but first the message was given to the church. This is all that God has to personally say to the lost, i.e. "This is my beloved Son, hear ye him". Anything that unregenernated sinners may read and understand, usually through the writings of Christians and not the bible itself, is solely because of the revelations of God given to his church. Even the angels had to be revealed some truth from God via his church (Eph. 3:10)

There is nothing complicated about this unless you want it to be because you cannot admit you are wrong.

Please think more carefully about the words used in 1 Cor. 2:14-15.  I think you are missing the nuances of "natural man" and "he that is spiritual" in light of the whole verses.  I don't think we need to argue.  We actually have lots of common ground.  I have already expressed my belief that the natural man in 1 Cor. 2:14 means certain non-believers, the natural ones, as it says.  I wish you the best, and let's not argue out of our love in Christ.  🙂  ❤️ 

 

 

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20 hours ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

Thank you for your time Pastor.  I think I have already made my interpretation clear.  There's no need to keep saying the same thing.  May God be glorified.  Have a blessed day! (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Brother "BibleBeliever,"

Yes, I believe that you have made your interpretation clear; however, I do NOT believe that you have made your grammatical and contextual explanation for that interpretation clear.

35 minutes ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

Please think more carefully about the words used in 1 Cor. 2:14-15.  I think you are missing the nuances of "natural man" and "he that is spiritual" in light of the whole verses.  I don't think we need to argue.  We actually have lots of common ground.  I have already expressed my belief that the natural man in 1 Cor. 2:14 means certain non-believers, the natural ones, as it says.  I wish you the best, and let's not argue out of our love in Christ.  🙂  ❤️  (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

On 1/31/2021 at 11:32 AM, BibleBeliever5 said:

Verse 14 is talking about natural men as non-believers who are atheists and secularists who do not believe in anything spiritual.  (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Therefore, I would request that you present a more thorough explanation from the grammar and context as to how you derive the above definition for "the natural man" of 1 Corinthians 2:14.

In a previous posting I myself have presented my definition for "the natural man" as "the individual who has not yet received the indwelling Holy Spirit (as such -- all unbelievers)."  Furthermore, I have presented from the context the necessity for an individual to have received the Holy Spirit specifically that he or she might know "the wisdom of God."  On the other hand, you have defined "the natural man" as "non-believers who are atheists and secularists who do not believe in anything spiritual."  Yet you have not provided any grammatical or contextual support for your usage of this definition.  I am now asking you to provide that grammatical or contextual support.

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13 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother "BibleBeliever,"

Yes, I believe that you have made your interpretation clear; however, I do NOT believe that you have made your grammatical and contextual explanation for that interpretation clear.

Therefore, I would request that you present a more thorough explanation from the grammar and context as to how you derive the above definition for "the natural man" of 1 Corinthians 2:14.

In a previous posting I myself have presented my definition for "the natural man" as "the individual who has not yet received the indwelling Holy Spirit (as such -- all unbelievers)."  Furthermore, I have presented from the context the necessity for an individual to have received the Holy Spirit specifically that he or she might know "the wisdom of God."  On the other hand, you have defined "the natural man" as "non-believers who are atheists and secularists who do not believe in anything spiritual."  Yet you have not provided any grammatical or contextual support for your usage of this definition.  I am now asking you to provide that grammatical or contextual support.

Hi Pastor, I think I have already indicated that I am ready to finish this conversation with you that is somewhat off topic from the original post.  I am busy.  Even if I explain more than I already have, I think it is very unlikely that you would accept it.  I know God can reveal to you the correct meaning in time to come.  Are you able to let this go?  Stay safe and healthy.

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I haven't read the thread, but based on the original post, here is my two cents

1. God has promised to preserve His Word for every generation. God has done so in English through the KJV. In Spanish, it's another version. There is a German equivalent, French equivalent, etc.

2. The KJV is not double inspired - Ruckmanite false theology. 

3. The likely hood of a modern English translation being accepted is slim to none. Those who have the ability to translate from the original languages see no reason to leave the KJV. Those who want a Modern translation, don't have the skillset to translate

4. Those who hold to an KJV only would never consider it and those with only KJV for the most part understand the KJV well enough that we are comfortable with it and 

 

So the question is, what would be the reason to create a modern translation? We live in a day where the majority of Americans don't understand the Kings English. Therefore, the KJV is not in the language of today. If a missionary were to go to an area where the Bible was not translated, we would have no issue translating it in that language. I would love to see a modern version, but as stated above, do not believe an accurate 21st century translation will ever happen.

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9 minutes ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

Hi Pastor, I think I have already indicated that I am ready to finish this conversation with you that is somewhat off topic from the original post.  I am busy.  Even if I explain more than I already have, I think it is very unlikely that you would accept it.  I know God can reveal to you the correct meaning in time to come.  Are you able to let this go?  Stay safe and healthy.

Brother "BibleBeliever,"

(Note: I intend the following with grace, but also with clarity.)

Sure, I can let it go.  However, this discussion between us most definitely HAS affected my view of your original topic for this thread discussion.  Your original topic concerned the matter of updating/altering the present language of the King James translation to something that you view as more simple/modern.  Since you are the one who initiated this thread discussion, you serve as the central representative of that idea within the context of this thread discussion.  Even so, since (from my perspective) I have not found you able to understand the contextual and doctrinal flow of thought in a fairly basic portion of Scripture, I myself have come to not at all trust you as a representative of the pursuit to update/alter the language of the King James translation.  Understanding the flow of thought in a context is a matter of language comprehension.  Even so, if I (from my perspective) cannot trust you in the language comprehension of a fairly basic passage, then I (from my perspective) certainly cannot trust you in the language comprehension necessary to change/alter the entire Scriptures.

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      If you have Amazon Prime there's a few free videos about the King James bible that are worth the watch. One is entitled, "A Lamp in a Dark Place" and another is its sequel entitled, "Tares Among the Wheat". Both are pretty good. There's also one entitle, "KJV-The Making of the King James Bible". Finally, there's one entitled, "KJV- The Book that Changed the World" but that one you have to rent. The latter focuses a lot on King James himself, the translators and the socio-political environment of the time. Check them out if you can.
    • By birdlover99
      So I need help selecting the perfect bible. I've been looking but haven't found my one yet. I want it to be sturdy, large, normal sized print. Not the really tiny print. Words of god in red. I would really like to have the reference topics in the back but I would be ok if someone knew of a bible topics book separate I'd really appreaciate it, please when you reply send link too. 
    • By Jordan Kurecki
      Why are you King James only? or if you aren't why not?
       
      I found that many people from both sides of the debate are ignorant about a lot of things, many often parrot what they have heard from others, and many have not done critical thinking on these issues.
       
      I would say that my main reasons is that I absolutely do not believe that the textual theories of Wescott and Hort are valid, and I believe the critical text is based on minority manuscripts because of the cultic following and unquestioning loyalty to their textual theories (Oldest and Best Manuscripts blah blah blah).
       
      on the flip side I have seen many King James Only people with some pretty lacking defenses of the King James Only position.
       
      What is your position and why do you hold to it?
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