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Thoughts about an update to the KJV?


Would you use a simple accurate KJV update?  

13 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you use a simple accurate KJV update?

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      5
    • Not Sure
      0
    • Probably
      1
    • Probably Not
      3


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26 minutes ago, John Young said:

The bible wasn't written for unbelievers. It was written for the church to use.

I'm actually amazed you think that.  You don't know God uses the Bible to speak to non-believers and convert sinners?  You don't use the Bible when you go witnessing?  Of course we should want non-believers to be able to understand the Bible.  Wouldn't you agree?

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35 minutes ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

You don't know God uses the Bible to speak to non-believers and convert sinners? 

God tasked the church with converting the lost and edifying the saints through the geat commission but scripture was written to equip the church in that task. However, It was not written for the unbeliever /lost to read and understand on their own.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 KJV
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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29 minutes ago, John Young said:

God tasked the church with converting the lost and edifying the saints through the geat commission but scripture was written to equip the church in that task. However, It was not written for the unbeliever /lost to read and understand on their own.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 KJV
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

In verse 14, it does not say the "non-believer."  The Scripture specifically says the "natural man."  These are the secularists who reject everything spiritual.  But there are some non-believers who are spiritual and believe in spiritual things.  If you interpret the natural man to mean all non-believers, then how would a non-believer ever receive the gospel and convert?  Non-believers do receive the things of the Spirit of God when they hear the good news and believe.  No, the "natural man" in that text does not mean all non-believers.

The Bible was written for non-believers.  God speaks to non-believers and believers through it.  We should want them to have it in a language they can understand without putting in all the effort to learn archaic English.  And non-believers can certainly read and understand parts of the Bible on their own.  Some things are very obvious in the Bible.  Many non-believers do in fact read the Bible and understand some things on their own.  I heard of a non-believer who studied the Bible 10 years and then became a believer.  First you said it was not written for non-believers.  Now you say it was not written for non-believers to read and understand on their own.  So you're saying a non-believer can only read and understand it when someone explains it to them?  Only then they can receive the things of God?  But where do you get that?  How is that different than when they read it on their own.  I think your position is lost and very unhelpful for the lost.  Of course we should want non-believers to be able to understand the text of Scripture.  God can speak directly to them.

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1 hour ago, John Young said:

God tasked the church with converting the lost and edifying the saints through the geat commission but scripture was written to equip the church in that task. However, It was not written for the unbeliever /lost to read and understand on their own.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 KJV
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here is one verse that was written for and to the non-believer.

[Rom 2:5 KJV] 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

That is archaic English and would sound very strange for a non-believer not familiar with KJV English.  Do we need to give non-believers that kind of hurdle to understand God's word?

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54 minutes ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

So you're saying a non-believer can only read and understand it when someone explains it to them?  Only then they can receive the things of God?  But where do you get that?

Its a basic bible concept. God committed the oracles* first to the church in the wilderness and then to us, his NT church with the commission to preach and teach it. The believer has the Spirit of Christ within them which convicts the lost through preaching. The lost cannot believe without the Chrisitian preaching it to them.

*4. Among christians, oracles, in the plural, denotes the communications, revelations or messages delivered by God to prophets. In this sense it is rarely used in the singular; but we say, the oracles of God, divine oracles, meaning the Scriptures. ~Webster's 1828

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us

Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Titus 1:3 but hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

2 Peter 1:20-21 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

1 Peter 4:10-11 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 

Acts 8:30-37 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 in his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 11:12-16 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man’s house: 13 and he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Edited by John Young
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3 hours ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

So while you may be comfortable with archaic language, that doesn't mean the non-believer that you meet on the street will be.  We need to be thinking about them.  Even if you explain all the archaic language, they still may not be able to actually understand the language of Scripture itself,

So do you want to update the bible for unbelievers to be able to understand it on their own? I don't think such a thing is truly possible. They need a Spirit filled preacher to speak the Words of Life.  I would rather have a written bible that equips the believer, so that the believer can do what they were commissioned to do. 

John 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Matthew 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

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1 hour ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

In verse 14, it does not say the "non-believer."  The Scripture specifically says the "natural man."  These are the secularists who reject everything spiritual.  But there are some non-believers who are spiritual and believe in spiritual things.  If you interpret the natural man to mean all non-believers, then how would a non-believer ever receive the gospel and convert?  Non-believers do receive the things of the Spirit of God when they hear the good news and believe.  No, the "natural man" in that text does not mean all non-believers.

Sorry; but in relation to the entire context of 1 Corinthians 2, the "natural man" of verse 14 is indeed the "non-believer" (that is -- the lost individual who is "unspiritual" because he or she is yet spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins").  As far as your argument that such would prevent the lost from understanding the gospel, the entire context of 1 Corinthians 2 divides the gospel message from the "wisdom of God."  In 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 the apostle spoke concerning his proclamation of the gospel (which the lost individual can understand through the drawing/convicting work of God).  In 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 the apostle spoke concerning the broader "wisdom of God" (which the lost individual cannot grasp on the spiritual level because such requires spiritual discernment and he or she is yet spiritually dead).

 

1 hour ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

[Rom 2:5 KJV] 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

I myself am also compelled to contend that this is a poor example of "archaic" English.  The only "archaic" elements in this verse would be the "st" ending on "treasurest" and possibly (and I would say, only slightly possibly) the word "impenitent."  So, what could be used instead of the word "impenitent"?  Maybe the best synonym would be the word "unrepentant."  However, the word "unrepentant" would be just as uncommon in societal language as the word "impenitent."  Yet the concept/doctrine of repentance (or the lack thereof) carries significant Biblical importance, and must not be discarded.  Here is a case wherein I would definitely contend that the reader needs to LEARN, rather than the translation be changed.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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9 hours ago, John Young said:

The bible wasn't written for unbelievers. It was written for the church to use.

That’s not what the Gospel of John says 

John 20:30-31 KJV
[30] And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: [31] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 

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2 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

That’s not what the Gospel of John says

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

John 1:6-7 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

The Book of John was written to explain the Spiritual aspects of the gospel to the believer and in the first chapter it explains a witness from God was needed for the lost to comprehend. Before one can believe the scriptures they must first repent unto God and the Book of John does not deal with repentance directly but rather the process of believing. 

That is not to say the scripters cannot be used in the process of witnessing but that God uses believers, preaching through the Spirit, to propagate it and that the lost cannot receive its spiritual meaning alone. Without the proclamation of the Spirit filled believer the lost have no draw to salvation.

John 16:7-11 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Edited by John Young
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12 hours ago, John Young said:

Its a basic bible concept. God committed the oracles* first to the church in the wilderness and then to us, his NT church with the commission to preach and teach it. The believer has the Spirit of Christ within them which convicts the lost through preaching. The lost cannot believe without the Chrisitian preaching it to them.

*4. Among christians, oracles, in the plural, denotes the communications, revelations or messages delivered by God to prophets. In this sense it is rarely used in the singular; but we say, the oracles of God, divine oracles, meaning the Scriptures. ~Webster's 1828

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us

Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Titus 1:3 but hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

2 Peter 1:20-21 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

1 Peter 4:10-11 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 

Acts 8:30-37 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 in his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 11:12-16 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man’s house: 13 and he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

You're mistaken and not using good logic, nor good application of Scripture.  None of that proves that non-believers require a Christian to understand Scripture.  And none of that means we should not have Scripture in language that can be understood by non-believers.

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11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sorry; but in relation to the entire context of 1 Corinthians 2, the "natural man" of verse 14 is indeed the "non-believer" (that is -- the lost individual who is "unspiritual" because he or she is yet spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins").  As far as your argument that such would prevent the lost from understanding the gospel, the entire context of 1 Corinthians 2 divides the gospel message from the "wisdom of God."  In 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 the apostle spoke concerning his proclamation of the gospel (which the lost individual can understand through the drawing/convicting work of God).  In 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 the apostle spoke concerning the broader "wisdom of God" (which the lost individual cannot grasp on the spiritual level because such requires spiritual discernment and he or she is yet spiritually dead).

 

I myself am also compelled to contend that this is a poor example of "archaic" English.  The only "archaic" elements in this verse would be the "st" ending on "treasurest" and possibly (and I would say, only slightly possibly) the word "impenitent."  So, what could be used instead of the word "impenitent"?  Maybe the best synonym would be the word "unrepentant."  However, the word "unrepentant" would be just as uncommon in societal language as the word "impenitent."  Yet the concept/doctrine of repentance (or the lack thereof) carries significant Biblical importance, and must not be discarded.  Here is a case wherein I would definitely contend that the reader needs to LEARN, rather than the translation be changed.

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

My main point with verse 14 is that it does not mean all non-believers can never receive the things of the Spirit of God and therefore do not need the Bible in language they can understand.  The gospel is included here as a thing of the Spirit of God (see the context of verse 11).  Of course, non-believers receive the things of God's Spirit when they seek the Lord and believe.  I have heard multiple stories of non-believers personally studying the Bible and through that converting.

[Rom 2:5 KJV] 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

In terms of Romans 2:5, you probably are so used to KJV English that you missed one of the major archaic elements of the verse (thy and thyself).  Another archaic element you missed was "unto."  The dictionary classes both of these elements as archaic.  Nobody in America talks like verse 5 today and the verse would just come across plain odd and not clearly understood by some people, especially to hear it orally.  If they did have someone explain the archaic elements to them, it would take extra unnecessary mental processing for them to try to comprehend the verse.  All of that extra work (explanation and struggling to understand) is simply unnecessary when the same meaning could be communicated in modern English.  The verse is clearly written in archaic English.

 

2 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Romans 10:14 (KJV) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Do you think these verses mean non-believers can not read and learn about Jesus in the Bible?  That's not what it means.

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2 hours ago, BibleBeliever5 said:

None of that proves that non-believers require a Christian to understand Scripture. 

Okay then....Do you believe they can understand the Spiritual aspects of scripture without the Spirit of Christ?

Edited by John Young
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22 minutes ago, John Young said:

Okay then....Do you believe they can understand the Spiritual aspects of scripture without the Spirit of Christ?

I don't want to get too much off topic.  It seems like it would be an endless debate with you.  The point is that it is valuable for non-Christians to have the Scriptures in their own modern language that they know and understand.  

[Jhn 20:31 KJV] 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

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